Why is USUK considered incest?

[pennilee]

Hi! I have a question: Lately I've been wondering/needing people's opinions to why some people consider USUK incest when they ship Spamano or NiChu or SwissLiech. Or why they consider it incest at all, because finding someone on a random road is not incest from how I look at it. This might be a bit touchy, since I know some people do not like this(these) pairing(s) at all. Oh, and I'd like to know why, not pairing bashing please! :) ...and this has turned into a mini discussion of some sort. o.O

Comments

[chibirussia450.livejournal.com]

First off, it has never been explicitly stated that Spain and Romano are brothers, and in fact this is highly unlikely in the historical sense. USUK, however, is completely incest, because England adopted America as his little brother. Some people say that when America gained independence, this ended, but when you adopt someone, you can't unadopt them in any way. This is the same with SwissLiech (also pedophilia, if you look at it) and NiChu. Yes, finding someone on a road is not incest, but when you adopt them, it sort of is, even if one or both the parties decide to ignore the relationship (aka, pretend they don't know the person [Japan] or move out of someone's house [America]).
I hope this was helpful and not too biased :)

[pennilee]

//scratches head for Spamano, I... don't know what to make of that. XD I think Spamano is in the exact position as USUK, even though it was never stated clearly. //shrugs :) Thanks, I wanted to see people's opinion on this! And no, it was not very biased, don't worry! ;)

[julesie-g.livejournal.com]

I've always wondered the same thing.

Technically aren't all nations related some way or another?

[pennilee]

Yeah, I've thought about that as well. See, one example is France x England. (not trying to bash or anything) France actually colonized England a long time ago, around the early medieval times, for what I recall. So yeah, if we make it so literal, pretty much any country dating each other is incest. :P ( another example: AlfredxNatalia, since Natalia was for a short while "adopted" by Alfred. ^^")

[pandalovesmilk.livejournal.com]

Like chibi said, it's because Arthur adopted Alfred and treated him like a little brother, Antonio treated Romano like an underling, someone to obey him (didn't work out obvs) but Antonio didn't adopt Romano as a brother or son, they are alike though! Both have a hint of pedophilia, because Arthur and Antonio were significantly older than Alfred and Romano, that's the similarity that USUK and Spamano have, at least that's what I see.

[pennilee]

//nodnod That sounds like something I might've said for Spamano. But really even if someone convinced me that USUK shouldn't be a pair, I still would have felt real weird putting France/England together. :/ (Not that I hate that pairing or anything...)

[hero0310.livejournal.com]

In all fairness, there is some possibility in the theory of dissolving of an adoption. However, just think. England raised America as his older brother- identical to a parental figure to America. In other words, it could be the same as saying England raised America as a father-figure. Even if were no longer related according to any documents, that doesn't automatically erase the fact that England is still family in a sense.

On a side note: Spain never actually refereed to Romano as a brother; rather a underling

China and Japan technically are siblings along with most of East Asia

And Liechtenstein is still Switzerland's adopted younger sister as of present. And both refer to themselves as such

[starrdust411.livejournal.com]

Spain never actually refereed to Romano as a brother; rather a underling

The English dub now adds a somewhat incestuous subtext to this dynamic now as there is at least one line where Spain makes a comment about being a parent (in reference to taking care of little Romano). This can still easily be hand waved away since taking care of a young child, either as an underling, sibling, or son, can be considered "parenting."

[republicgermany.livejournal.com]

"finding someone on a random road is not incest no matter how you look at it"

I'm not sure why you're asking people how they look at it if you've already decided that they're wrong. But basically, if you adopt an orphaned child and raise him to adulthood, but also start a sexual relationship with him, I think most people would consider that incest. Different people have different definitions - some people may only consider it incest if they're biologically related. But in most cases I think it's more about the psychological/social aspects of having a sexual relationship with a family member. These aspects are probably the main factor when it comes to same-sex relationships, because there's no chance of them producing children with birth defects, so the biological issues don't really matter anymore.

There is also the issue of the older person breaching their duty of care over the younger person. Whether someone considers the relationship incestuous or not, it is still a taboo in the same way as, say, a teacher having sex with a student.

Personally, I don't see how Spamano is any different to USUK. Regardless of whether it was an "official" adoption, the nature of the relationship was the same.

[pennilee]

I wanted to see people's reaction to this, rather than just my thoughts. :) Being openminded here. //or trying too //shot

When I first started Hetalia, I thought about that as well, but I felt like not caring about the situation because if you look at it closely, I think almost every single country in someway is related to each other at a point in time. :)

Yay :D

[xushar.livejournal.com]

People (like me) consider it incestuousness because they're confirm to be family. England and America shared a father/son relationship that became brotherly because America aged faster than realistically possible. So this makes England a disowned adoptive father. It is confusing because England never aged and they appear the same age, and this never happens in reality. I don't mind if people like it, but I don't personally ever see such as remotely possible with pairing. (Germancest is a word that I just think is disgusting, more so than the pairing).

[pennilee]

//nodnod I understand. :) Thanks for sharing, I appreciate your opinion :D Oh, and one question: Why do you think many people are attracted to this pairing, even though some people say it's incest? And Germancest? I'm okay with it, haha, but I prefer Prussia/Russia sometimes or Prussia/... anyone really ^^" However, I don't know why PruCan is even a pairing, considering they never talked to each other in the anime, or as far as I know. o.O Mind telling me?

[pennilee]

Well, some\people just dislike it because of the long-long-time-ago strong familial relationship between them. And that's how I see it too ;'D And to add it they're countries, so... I guess familial ties break and form all the time? XD It's okay //patpat My brain is fangirlish as well, XD

[dustbunny105.livejournal.com]

Rambling, ahoy:

Honestly, the argument that USUK isn't incest no way, no how has always struck me as being rather dismissive of adoptive relationships. I don't think saying England adopted America is strictly correct because adoption, to me, implies a legal formality that isn't evident in canon, but the two of them still regarded and treated each other as brothers for many years. America denounced England as his big brother during the Revolution, yes, but you can't un-ring a bell. If a guy goes all I HAVE NO SON, I'm not gonna be any less tripped if he starts making out with the son he had two seconds ago, y'know? There's also an added level of incestuous feelings for me because, personally speaking, America is the only baby Nation who ever really struck me as a kid who needed raising (yes, even when I take his fast growth into consideration); the others come off more like mini-adults (yes, even when I take Romano's bed-wetting problem into consideration). Also, even all these years later, you have England whining about America leaving him, so you could argue that he still looks at America as a brother whether America feels the same or not. That being said, modern America and England are far enough removed from their original dynamic that I can gloss over the incest angle if I feel like it, same as I can for NiChu. Idk, I lack problems with immortals that I would have with mortals.

Re: Spamano: I've never regarded it as incest since Spain always treated Romano as a servant instead of a charge, but it still pings me as a little... something because Spain was present and in authority for so much of Romano's childhood. When I stop and think about the ships in terms of "that's a little weird," Spamano honestly strikes me as more so because, brotherly dynamic or not, England was still absent for chunks of America's formative years. I'm not sure how to phrase what I mean exactly, but, like, two brothers who don't see each other for decades(?) is a few levels below "that guy and the guy he raised" for me.

Re: SwissLiech: I imagine people wave off the incestuousness because Switzerland didn't find Liechtenstein as a small child and she doesn't look like she's aged a whole lot since they met. I can't get beyond how deeply ingrained their reference to one another as siblings is, personally, but I guess some people might just see them as really familiar roommates or something? Idk.

Sorry for any lack of coherency, I should be sleeping.

[republicgermany.livejournal.com]

I'm with you on the "being rather dismissive of adoptive relationships" thing. Claiming that sex between adopted relatives is not incest, is like claiming that adoption does not actually make you part of the family, and that's just cruel.

Drawing the incest line at blood relatives seems especially strange when referring to Hetalia characters, because as far as I can tell, none of them are blood-related. I don't recall any instance in either the manga or the anime when someone actually gives birth to a country - they all just seem to pop up one day as children.

[kanami-yuuta.livejournal.com]

was USUK ever seriously considered incest? /eats cookie

[pennilee]

Yeah. Some people in Hetalia do consider it, and now I'm raising opinions on why it is or why it is not because I can't really see why it is so. :) //munches cookie with you

[reyechan.livejournal.com]

They consider it incest because the whole "brothers" things was actually mentioned in canon -- America asks to call England brother, and when he claims independence, he renounces the title, but it's more or less hinted that England still feels close to him. Whether you take it as brotherly fondness or romantic interest is up to your interpretation.
NiChu and SwissLiech are in the same boat [though China's insistence on being Japan's big brother seems a bit one-sided, and Swiss never calls Liechtenstein "sister"], but SpaMano isn't, since there's no "brother" thing going on. Romano already has a brother, and Spain calls himself "boss" for a reason; Romano is his servant, and later his quasi-friend/lover[? <3].

[pennilee]

I only actually remembered that after the comments appeared. ^^; And America + England seems to not have visited each other very much... //munches cookie thoughtfully Spamano; I sometimes consider them having a brother/cousin/father relationship between those two, or a weird, mutilated version of that XD

[the8thstone.livejournal.com]

I think the exact definition of incest is a little different for everyone, but for me personally USUK is not considered incest because they're not actually "blood-related." I don't consider love (or, well, lust) between those who are related by adoptions incest.

As for them acting like father and son (therefore being an incestuous pairing), I don't really find that convincing either. If you look at how they interact with each other in canon, America considers England his equal, and England hardly acts the way a parent should toward his child. People change, after all. You can have a best friend whom you consider a brother in your adolescence. Then, a few years later, he changes, you change, and you see each other in a new light or whatnot. It happens.

Hm. Basically, I never considered USUK to be incestuous when all of the ship-hinting were tossed in, so yeah, it surprises me too when people label it as incest.

[pennilee]

England acted more like a brother when he was younger (admittedly a not-so-good one), and then... when it came to WWII moments of them being together or the Japan whale incident, I pretty much dropped the idea of them together being incest. XD

//nodnod I see :)

[boo-sagara.livejournal.com]

I, personally, don't consider anything as incest in Hetalia...

Because well, first, they are nations-tans. The age difference between them can reach centuries or millennia! If we take this into consideration, all the ships can be considered as pedophilia o.o'! Not to mention that their relationship changes a lot with time passes... I think that although, for example, England "took care" of America for a period, it's not as if they were real brothers. America probably learned more things and spent more time with his own people than with England (and I think that goes for all the nations-tans)...

But I think it all depends on how the author or the artist plays the character and the universe in which they are situated. The author of a Netherlands/Belgium fanfic, that takes place in actual days and in that they are nations-tans, should research and take some things into consideration if it will contain historical facts, besides trying to show interesting reasons to the development of their relationship.
Of course that if you write a human AU fic, in which Arthur and Alfred are in a loving relationship, and Alfred is like, 8 years old and Arthur is 28, well, then that's a totally different thing :/...

But well, everyone sees the characters and pairings in a different way and if the person just likes England and America as brothers or father/son, there's no problem with that.

[pennilee]

//agrees Holy Roman Empire, you almost share the same viewpoints as mine :D

[n.livejournal.com]

>'discussion' on incest in hetalia
>clop

really?

[pennilee]

Well, I am discussing, am I not? :) And... really. So, what's your opinion? :)

[kasumicc.livejournal.com]

In my book, you have real incest only when there's actual blood bonds involved. Isn't that the reason of why incest is such a taboo, the blood mix? So N.Italy/S.Italy and Germany/Prussia do qualify as incest to me, but I don't consider any of the pairings you've mentioned as incest. Now, if you consider the bond among the characters...if you ask me, they're either ALL incestuous or, none of them actually is. It really goes beyond me when people try to argue that USUK is incestuous and Spamano isn't. For all Spain may argue that Romano's just an underling, the way he treats Romano says otherwise. And the same goes to England; he actually says that he doesn't want to be called "brother"...and yet the way he acts is proper of a brotherly/parental figure.

In all honesty, I really don't know why it matters. It's not that incest has stopped people from shipping those countries who DO share a relation of blood. The "USUK is incest" statement is a weak argument that has been used for years to try to invalidate the pairing. But we're talking about countries, not normal people. So, let's say that USUK IS incest. Does that change things? Does it even matter?
Okay, maybe it DOES matter if your moral says that incest is wrong no matter how. That still doesn't explain why is that USUK is usually the only pairing to be looked down because of "incest".

[pennilee]

Does it change things? Perhaps, in another's viewpoint. And I suppose it is because of the fact that USUK is much... more displayed in the series? America did seem somewhat younger than all the other pairs I mentioned above.

[heyyl0.livejournal.com]

*While everyone is throwing in opinions about the legalities and definition of the word "adoption"*

I'll speak, as one who does consider the pairing incest, from a more emotional point of view. I simply consider it incest because, quite frankly, I've always felt America and England had better chemistry as brothers rather than as lovers; but then again, that's just my opinion, and I've felt the same about it from the time I discovered Hetalia through the English dub all the way through watching the original dub and reading the webcomic. I can't explain it, but I simply love the idea of America and England as brothers and I love when they are portayed in that sense. So, headcanon-wise, regardless if America is England's brother or not (blood-related or adopted as well), they are brothers to me because seeing them that way is just a personal preference.

So, that's why I consider USUK incest, in my eyes. I guess, to me, it's shipping brothers. :/ I'm not knocking anybody who ships it, but I'm just saying that I just can't see the pairing the way they can.

[pennilee]

I see. :) Thank you for taking your time to share the opinions! :)

[the8thstone.livejournal.com]

Huh. The fandom (or this discussion, at least) seems quite divisive when it comes to this issue.

[pennilee]

Doesn't it? Now that everyone's replies are here I feel quite overwhelmed. XP

[angielsdaemons.livejournal.com]

I don't consider USUK incest :) although I don't ship the pairing (FrUK fan here :'D) and I consider them to have a brotherly or father/son relationship, I don't ship it not because it's incestuous but simply because I... well... don't like it? ^^" I guess it depends on opinion :D but as to NiChu *shudders*... I don't know why that pairing gives me the creeps when Korea/China and Japan/Korea doesn't... well, not to that extent... perhaps it's the horrible history and the fact that there's still A LOT of leftover hate between their people :(

Spamano and SwissLiech on the other hand... I love Spamano but I ship AusSwiss ^^" or PruAus or AusHun, depending on the occasion :'D I don't think they're really incest since it's difficult to define if countries are related by blood unless it's explicitly stated, like Norway and Iceland.

//sorry for rambling ^^"

[pennilee]

Holy Roman Empire so many comments //shot I'm getting overwhelmed DX Thanks! And it's perfectly fine ^.^

[kecen.livejournal.com]

I don't consider Japan/China incest because Japan was never under Chinese rule, while America has been under British rule and South Italy has been under Spanish rule. That and Japan denied them being related - Himaruya portrayed them in a way that came off as teacher/student to me. I also see Korea/China as China taking in Silla's child to rear "the right way" as a ~future lover~ - wife husbandry (look it up on TVtropes) basically. I don't know how common that was back then but...

I don't really think about the incest thing at all for USUK - since nations do not have relationships quite the same as humans, their psychology (the Westermarck effect might not apply at all) must be different. Nations' relationships change, so one nation viewing another as a parental figure can easily change/be forgotten because their people forget the importance of the other nation (political reasons) or the nation "matures" - no humans live as long as these nations, too.

[pennilee]

Interesting~ //scribbles down

[makikoigami.livejournal.com]

May I add in that in ancient Greece and ancient Rome people in higher positions would adopt their lovers (mostly of the same sex) to provide for them?

I mean, that has nothing to do with the original question, but it just irked me while I was reading some of the comments here.

Personally, between adopted siblings I don't consider love as incest, but since in Hetalia, almost every country has blood relations to another if we go really deep down, almost everything should be considered incest. But as I said, only if we go really deep.

I say, if people want to treat USUK as incest, let them be. (On that same note, I say if people want to ship USUK, let them be, but that's not the matter here either.) On the other hand, it irks me when people blow Germancest out of proportion when they are just as related as USUK. I don't know, but I've wondered about this a lot of time, why would people condemn me for shipping Germany and Prussia as somebody who likes incest, but why are those people shipping USUK at the same time?

Technically speaking, I'd treat Spamano in the same way as these two other pairings because that's what they are, even though the way Spain treats Romano is indeed different than Prussia or England. It still is a somewhat parent-child-relationship, if you want to see it like that, so I think that if you go shipping in Hetalia, you are inevitably bound to end up shipping something that's somewhat incestuous, but that's my thinking.

tl;dr I don't really have an opinion to the original question, just wanted to throw in some more stuff to think about. ^^;;

[kecen.livejournal.com]

I feel that Hetalia fandom sometimes forget that morality standards differed back then vs. now - mostly I'm concerned with relations that would be considered "underage" today.

[gehageha.livejournal.com]

i never see USUK as incest. come on... they have no blood relation.
isn't USCA more looks like incest since they have same face? but anybody free to use their imagination

[pennilee]

I suppose incest comes from blood relation, not face appearance :) and I do believe AmeCan is incest, because they're brothers. If not, I still do because they look exactly the same and have been raised by the same person. :)

[artemis10002000]

I don't have a definite opinion on whether I consider them incest or not. Sibling incest doesn't squick me, so I never had to make a choice. I enjoy stories which portray them as brothers respectively as father/son (hell, yes, FACE family) as much as I enjoy shippy fics - though I would rather not have both of it in the same story xD Parent/child does squick me. Outside of FACE family cuteness I see them as adopted brothers, but rather distant brothers since America was left to his own devices for large parts of his childhood and cut his ties to his family while he was still rather young.

It confuses me, though, when people say USUK squicks them for incest yet they ship Spamano. My first impression of Spamano long before I considered them as a pairing was of a foster father/son relationship. Probably since I desperately want Romano to have had a nice, loving childhood. It took me a while to warm up to them as a ship. As for "just an underling," that's what I would consider Austria/North Italy, whose interaction doesn't give me family vibes at all though Austria raised him.

[pennilee]

Austria/N.Italy! Cows, never thought of that one before. XD Nice explanation, I love getting opinions from different people in slightly controversial issue. ^.^

[pennilee]

That is what you call epic. XD

[disneyotaku.livejournal.com]

Mini discussions are fun! :D I've answered a question like this before and here is what I wrote about it:
"First off, USUK is not incest. The reason that I give is that if you take this realistically/historically, the people living in the land that was called "America" were much different compared to the Europeans; they were basically a nation of their own. They had their own rules, own way of life, and way of living. They were two separate nations until the Europeans decided to go and "discover" the new world.
If you think of this Hetalia-wise, England, France, Finland, and Sweden found little America while visiting the new world. How can you be blood related to someone you found in the woods on the other side of the world? I believe, in my opinion The reason why America looked liked them was because of the influence they were putting in his country, but just because he looked like a few of them, doesn't mean he is one of them. England raised him up as a brother, but if you remember in Hetalia England couldn't stand to actually be called brother. In my opinion it was more of a mother - son relationship. It's really more of the type of relationship they had that that's why people consider it incest, because they were like brothers until the American Revolution.
It’s fine if you don’t like them because they had this type of relationship and you can’t see it forming into a romantic one, but it really isn't considered incest. And if you want another little bit of information, Himaruya never stated that the two were blood-related brothers."

I even went around the internet gathering information and I created an "official" family list as a reference to others so they will know what would technically be considered incest in Hetalia, which is this:

America and Canada
Ancient Rome - Italy and Romano
Netherlands, Belgium, and Luxembourg
Norway and Iceland
Germania - (Holy Roman Empire) Prussia, Germany, Bavaria, Brandenburg, Hessen, Holstein, Saxony, other German States
Ukraine, Russia, and Belarus
England, Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales, and Sealand
Cyprus and TRNC
Ancient Greece - Greece
Ancient Egypt - Egypt
Magyar - Hungary
Aizu and Miharu (both Japanese prefectures)
(Australia and Wy possibly)

So for me, if they are on that list I created, it's considered incest, but everything else is not.
But technically if you think about it, we are all related, including Hetalia characters Pangaea so technically it's all incest? XP Plot twist!

But I say let people think what they want to think. If they think it's incest, that's fine, or if they like them as bros or lovers, that's find as well.

[pennilee]

Pangaea! O.O

[barrelsncrates.livejournal.com]

Well, I'm not going to try and rehash what everybody else has said. It's the opposite for me. I remember a strip in which a soldier made the point in saying that America and England didn't look like they were brothers (if they were suppose to be). And as an American, I never really saw America as some adoptive child/sibling of England from the historical perspective. I see them as having a close, unique relationship that can't be defined but encompasses a lot of things. Since it's not that easy to peg it down, I can see how a romantic relationship would work without it being incestuous.

For pairings, I avoid looking at their early history together because otherwise, I would have to regard a lot of pairings as being borderline incestuous. I look at their recent history instead.

As for Spamano, I would not have regarded the romantic pairing as incestuous if it hadn't been for one particular strip (it was probably one of the deleted ones).

But to each their own. I don't think too much about ships when reading the strips itself (mostly because of the sheer level of madness). I like most ships as long as it's written well and true to their respective characters.

[pennilee]

Interesting :O And yeah, if every single pairing's defined all the way down, I guess many would be incestuous. :)

[shantari.livejournal.com]

Was first thinking of this as a >10 foot pole discussion, but wth! If we're anyway talking about Hetalia characters and incest, what about Sweden and Finland? I know that they aren't related in Hetalia canon, but historically the Finnish Maiden is considered daughter to Mother Svea. Some times we forget that we're talking about nations, and their spirits. It's sort of how viewing the Greek gods with human eyes tend to miss out on the fact that their relations are first and foremost metaphorical. If I look around enough I'll find Finland being Sweden's brother/sister/daughter/wife/servant/bodyguard/etc throughout history. Pretty sure the same can be said for USUK.

In the end, the real matter is where you draw the distinction between character and nation, and not so much where you generally draw the distinction of incest. If American and England were normal humans, then the very fact that America had been around England since he was that little would end up marking England as family in his mind, though that may also depend on how much time they spent together. Presumably they were around each other enough, but canon does give leeway what with England being gone for long stretches of a time, but the importance would be the time they spent together. Again, this is with a total human view. In consideration of their longevity, there is the possibility of a fluctuating view. Where America would have considered England romantically off limit during the time he was growing up and some time after his revolution, but where this boundary would fade with time during his time of isolation. Theoretially, at least. Hard to know without humans who can live for centuries, but once we discover immortality and decide to forego ethics in the name of science to figure out these kind of things, then we can experiment in real time. It'll take several centuries, but man would it not be worth it?!? The answer is no, it would not be worth it.

[pennilee]

Your viewpoint's interesting as well :D Immortality does blur the distinctions of familial love, doesn't it?