Why is USUK considered incest?

[pennilee]

Hi! I have a question: Lately I've been wondering/needing people's opinions to why some people consider USUK incest when they ship Spamano or NiChu or SwissLiech. Or why they consider it incest at all, because finding someone on a random road is not incest from how I look at it. This might be a bit touchy, since I know some people do not like this(these) pairing(s) at all. Oh, and I'd like to know why, not pairing bashing please! :) ...and this has turned into a mini discussion of some sort. o.O

Comments

[chibirussia450.livejournal.com]

First off, it has never been explicitly stated that Spain and Romano are brothers, and in fact this is highly unlikely in the historical sense. USUK, however, is completely incest, because England adopted America as his little brother. Some people say that when America gained independence, this ended, but when you adopt someone, you can't unadopt them in any way. This is the same with SwissLiech (also pedophilia, if you look at it) and NiChu. Yes, finding someone on a road is not incest, but when you adopt them, it sort of is, even if one or both the parties decide to ignore the relationship (aka, pretend they don't know the person [Japan] or move out of someone's house [America]).
I hope this was helpful and not too biased :)

[pennilee]

//scratches head for Spamano, I... don't know what to make of that. XD I think Spamano is in the exact position as USUK, even though it was never stated clearly. //shrugs :) Thanks, I wanted to see people's opinion on this! And no, it was not very biased, don't worry! ;)

[julesie-g.livejournal.com]

I've always wondered the same thing.

Technically aren't all nations related some way or another?

[pandalovesmilk.livejournal.com]

Like chibi said, it's because Arthur adopted Alfred and treated him like a little brother, Antonio treated Romano like an underling, someone to obey him (didn't work out obvs) but Antonio didn't adopt Romano as a brother or son, they are alike though! Both have a hint of pedophilia, because Arthur and Antonio were significantly older than Alfred and Romano, that's the similarity that USUK and Spamano have, at least that's what I see.

[worldruined.livejournal.com]

but when you adopt someone, you can't unadopt them in any way.

But you can disrupt or dissolve an adoption (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disruption_%28adoption%29), which is essentially the adoption equivalent of a divorce.

[pennilee]

Interesting... :D //scribbles down notes

[pennilee]

Yeah, I've thought about that as well. See, one example is France x England. (not trying to bash or anything) France actually colonized England a long time ago, around the early medieval times, for what I recall. So yeah, if we make it so literal, pretty much any country dating each other is incest. :P ( another example: AlfredxNatalia, since Natalia was for a short while "adopted" by Alfred. ^^")

[pennilee]

//nodnod That sounds like something I might've said for Spamano. But really even if someone convinced me that USUK shouldn't be a pair, I still would have felt real weird putting France/England together. :/ (Not that I hate that pairing or anything...)

[pandalovesmilk.livejournal.com]

Just curious, why would you have felt weird putting France/England together? I mean, i can ship almost anything xD

[pennilee]

I can ship anything (literally anything) except for England paired with France or Canada. :/ I really don't know why XD Ever since I arrived at the fandom, the first thing I read was a USUK fic. (no surprise there) and that fic was Everything Is Magic's You Can't Take the Sky Away From Me. And I loved it, so I immediately started to ship it almost fervently. XD Then I just started to only look under the USUK section, so... later on I read a Spamano and decided to like that as well, but... something about France and England together just tips me off. Dunno. o.O

[hero0310.livejournal.com]

In all fairness, there is some possibility in the theory of dissolving of an adoption. However, just think. England raised America as his older brother- identical to a parental figure to America. In other words, it could be the same as saying England raised America as a father-figure. Even if were no longer related according to any documents, that doesn't automatically erase the fact that England is still family in a sense.

On a side note: Spain never actually refereed to Romano as a brother; rather a underling

China and Japan technically are siblings along with most of East Asia

And Liechtenstein is still Switzerland's adopted younger sister as of present. And both refer to themselves as such

[starrdust411.livejournal.com]

Spain never actually refereed to Romano as a brother; rather a underling

The English dub now adds a somewhat incestuous subtext to this dynamic now as there is at least one line where Spain makes a comment about being a parent (in reference to taking care of little Romano). This can still easily be hand waved away since taking care of a young child, either as an underling, sibling, or son, can be considered "parenting."

[republicgermany.livejournal.com]

"finding someone on a random road is not incest no matter how you look at it"

I'm not sure why you're asking people how they look at it if you've already decided that they're wrong. But basically, if you adopt an orphaned child and raise him to adulthood, but also start a sexual relationship with him, I think most people would consider that incest. Different people have different definitions - some people may only consider it incest if they're biologically related. But in most cases I think it's more about the psychological/social aspects of having a sexual relationship with a family member. These aspects are probably the main factor when it comes to same-sex relationships, because there's no chance of them producing children with birth defects, so the biological issues don't really matter anymore.

There is also the issue of the older person breaching their duty of care over the younger person. Whether someone considers the relationship incestuous or not, it is still a taboo in the same way as, say, a teacher having sex with a student.

Personally, I don't see how Spamano is any different to USUK. Regardless of whether it was an "official" adoption, the nature of the relationship was the same.

[pennilee]

I see. //writes down However, here is a question: if you consider USUK incest, do you consider all the Latin (Rome-raised) countries dating each other incest as well?

[pink-cass.livejournal.com]

It's right that you can't unadopt someone, but at the same time (at least in my country) you can't adopt someone as a little brother to begin with. You are not a nation-tan, so I think that if continuity says they are no longer considered brothers, than we should take continuity's word for it. Also note that claiming somebody as part of your family is not the same as adopting them. Adopting involves a lot of paperwork and authorities, and while we weren't given the details, I find it hard to believe that either of those were involved in the case of England and America.
Also, I'm not sure of Liechtenstein's canon age, but if she's a legal adult or even close to it, then even if they were a pair, pedophilia would have nothing to do with it.
Just clarifying, I'm not shipping any pairings, so I'll stay out of that part. ;)

[pennilee]

I wanted to see people's reaction to this, rather than just my thoughts. :) Being openminded here. //or trying too //shot

When I first started Hetalia, I thought about that as well, but I felt like not caring about the situation because if you look at it closely, I think almost every single country in someway is related to each other at a point in time. :)

Yay :D

[xushar.livejournal.com]

People (like me) consider it incestuousness because they're confirm to be family. England and America shared a father/son relationship that became brotherly because America aged faster than realistically possible. So this makes England a disowned adoptive father. It is confusing because England never aged and they appear the same age, and this never happens in reality. I don't mind if people like it, but I don't personally ever see such as remotely possible with pairing. (Germancest is a word that I just think is disgusting, more so than the pairing).

[pennilee]

I see! :D Thanks for the reply! ^^

[pandalovesmilk.livejournal.com]

that's so funny! That's how i feel with USUK, i cant ship it! I didn't even know it was a popular pairing until i got really into the fandom and saw it everywhere LOL I can ship England with fly mint bunny, France with a toaster and Germany with idk lets say.. Canada, and that would make more sense to me than USUK, i just cant wrap my head around it, haha I guess we all have that one pair that just tips us off xD

[hero0310.livejournal.com]

Hm... True

[hero0310.livejournal.com]

Truth be told, yes. Only for the simple reason, like julesie_g said, that in a way- all the nations are related in some way or another. Furthermore, I think that's why Hima never makes any pairings official (with the exception of Holy Rome and Italy) In reality, almost none of the pairings the fans of Hetalia ship are canon- making issues like these difficult to settle.

But perhaps I'm the wrong person to consult considering I'm not a huge fan of shipping of countries at all ^^''

[republicgermany.livejournal.com]

I knew what you meant, it was just the way that you said it was not incest "no matter how you look at it" seemed to contradict the fact that you were asking people who do consider it incest how they look at it. Maybe you should have said "no matter how I look at it". But I am an annoying jerk who has a bad habit of pulling people's words apart instead of addressing the real issue, so you should probably just ignore me.

Anyway, I figure that being countries and all, they wouldn't have the same social standards when it comes to human relationships anyway. A lot of it would probably be based more on politics than on the family roles they've played to each other in the past. Plus, there are a lot fewer of them than there are humans, so if they avoid everyone they're related to in some way, they're not left with much choice.

[pennilee]

//nodnod I understand. :) Thanks for sharing, I appreciate your opinion :D Oh, and one question: Why do you think many people are attracted to this pairing, even though some people say it's incest? And Germancest? I'm okay with it, haha, but I prefer Prussia/Russia sometimes or Prussia/... anyone really ^^" However, I don't know why PruCan is even a pairing, considering they never talked to each other in the anime, or as far as I know. o.O Mind telling me?

[pennilee]

England/Flying Mint Bunny and France/Toaster? o.O Crack pairings, huh? xD And Germany/Canada... kinda weird in my opinion but I'm okay with it haha :) It's fine, but it just happened that my least favorite pairing is actually a popular pairing in the fandom :/ (again, not that I hate it... just dislike it DX)

[pennilee]

//nodnod Completely true. And nope, I need everyone's opinions on this. :D