[Discussion] How old are the nations?

[pineapple-toast.livejournal.com]

 I was wondering: At what point does a nation-tan start existing?


My first post on a lj community! :D

It's canon that baby America was found in the wilderness as the European nations began to colonize the Americas, but when did the really old nations begin to exist?

Case in point: China.
Do you think the nation-tan Wang Yao first appeared
(A) during the mythological Three Sovereigns and Five Emperors period (2852-2205 BC)
(B) at the beginning of the debated Xia dynasty (2070-1600 BC)
(C) around the time of the earliest discovered Chinese characters in the Shang dynasty (1556-1046 BC)
(D) in the Qin dynasty, the unification of the warring states (221-206 BC)
(E) in 1912, after the abdication of the last emperor
(F) in 1949, after the communist revolution
thank you wikipedia

What are your opinions? Headcanons about all countries are welcome!

Comments

[raienn.livejournal.com]

The only ancient nation I know any history about is China. In my headcanon, Yao first appeared during the Legendary Sages period. Definitely. He probably doesn't remember much of his childhood though, particularly during the Xia dynasty since it's still one of those "did it happen or not" kind of things. He probably had to tough it out like Arthur has (in fanon). The Qin unification was probably him just getting stronger and taking more of the warring states into his house (kind of like how Japan had his prefects and such) - but I wouldn't know what would have happened to all of them after the unification.

Ah it's not too clear but all I know is that I definitely think he was around with the sages.

[xblkdragonx.livejournal.com]

well...according to Hetalia, Yao is 4000 years old so somewhere around the Xia dynasty perhaps?

When I think of nations, I think of when they're first recognized as countries (i.e. have a ruler governing a large piece of land).

then again...that doesn't apply to US not does it since he was a colony when the European nations found him....

[daihua.livejournal.com]

Yao is definitely around by B, most likely as toddler!Yao.
Alfred is white when he is found,meaning that by that time, even though there weren't as many white settlers as the natives,the European settlers already had enough sense of a 'country' to have Alfred exist.
During Xia, though the borders weren't really that large, there was already a sense of China or 中国，the Middle Kingdom.
Thus Yao appears. As for the personification of the other tribes, in my headcanon, they disappeared/died similar to HRE since Yao just annexed them all and killed them when their people lost the sense of a independent coutnry.Only Yao survived through out the years and grew into the China we are familiar with today.

[seraphoftales.livejournal.com]

According to a very old piece of work by Himaruya, Egypt is 6000 years old... So I don't really know what period he was born... I know Italy was bron around 476 when Rome died, maybe a bit earliear... so around 1600 or so old... Japan was born, as shown by the Wiki timeline, in 660 BC. And that's all I have.

[hagane-no-mame.livejournal.com]

Except there is now a mama Egypt though she never appears. She would be what we call ancient Egypt and not the Egypt we know now. Like how Ancient Rome does not = Italy(because he died but somehow his descendants survived and went on to become Italy).

[hagane-no-mame.livejournal.com]

You can pretty much cross off D-F for China. There were many hundred years old dynasties before the Qing and though the rest of the world didn't know about China he was already existing and doing his thing. The last emperor abdicating should not have any kind of effect on the existence of a country, China's existence never depended on any self declared divine rulers(or any other country for that matter) since China kept replacing them anyway.

What's curious is that China survived the communist revolution and came out intact where as other old civilizations like Ancient Egypt/Greece/Persia/Rome simply disappeared.

[poochyena123.livejournal.com]

"What's curious is that China survived the communist revolution and came out intact where as other old civilizations like Ancient Egypt/Greece/Persia/Rome simply disappeared."

If you read their history..it's really rough and you notice one episode Rome is all beaten up hence why chibitalia said "That's why he disappeared". Ancient Egypt and Ancient Greece got really torn up by so many battles and being Conquered.

[poochyena123.livejournal.com]

Mama Egypt and Mama Greece are like the first nations to appear from what I see...Mama Egypt in RL is the oldest civilization and I saw Egypt's old profile he was born 3000 BC. Mama Greece is like a thousand year younger than Mama Egypt.

[lai-choi-san.livejournal.com]

If France is Gallia, then, according to the carbon dating of the megalithic monuments, he is 7000 years old.

[musubi7.livejournal.com]

I'm part of the very small, fringe house whose headcannon states that Nations are born, not made. I've got three variation headcannons which determine age, but they basically form around the idea that Nations grow into their cultures, that the birth of a nation (no pun intended) is not literally its birth.

1) It depends on the parents and outside influences. The Italy bros were born before the Roman Empire collapsed. 2) Empire meets Indigenous people make babeh colonies. America is born before America the Nation is created. 3) And the Why Do You Exist Nations, which of now are just HRE and Prussia. HRE was born after the area of the "HRE" was formed as a last ditch effort to create unity with the German people. Prussia is a half breed. Half human-half nation and his existence continues to boggle the minds of the other Nations.

[trudimo.livejournal.com]

I don't know much about China, but I'd go for B :)

But I could say something about my country... I'm not exactly sure when Finland was born, but I have headcanon that he was just a kid when Sweden "took him home" somewhere around 12th-13th century and that he was still more like a teenager (16-18 years?) until WWII, after which he quickly grew up. This is because Finland was quite underdeveloped and agrarian country until the 50s, but industrialized very fast and is now one of the most prosperous countries in the world. This is probably the reason why Himaruya described him "adult-like" even though Finland is actually rather young country. :D

[monokuroka.livejournal.com]

Yeah Finland can't have been nothing else than a little kid when Sweden came (and in my head canon helped him with some fights against Novgorod). Before that Finland probably existed before the 11th century. Maybe he appeared first as a baby when (proper/coast) Finns, Tavastians and Karelians emerged 500-1100. But really, hard to know, even theorize :/

But because the Kievan Rus is mentioned and Rome-jii-chan and Germania existed in canon, to my head canon it means that also Finland, Estonia and Hungary (and other Finno-Ugric peoples (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fenno-Ugrian_people.png)) have such an ancestor (and this ancestor lived somehow in contact with the Kievan Rus and was mysterious and all because no-one really knows who s/he really was and where s/he came from).

[aetheling.livejournal.com]

Modern Greece would be the son of Mama Greece and the Roman Empire, as so much Roman influence was spread to Greece during that time, and his first incarnation as a growing boy would have been as the Byzantine Empire (the golden sash he wears as a kid reflects this, I think) after the fall of Rome (generally held as the 5th century), with Constantinople being the center of the new empire and the 'second Rome.' I see him as being at least a young teenager by the time he's conquered in 1453 by Turkey, and a young adult upon his independence in 1830.
For the Italies, I think that South Italy is actually also the son of Mama Greece and the Roman Empire, because of the Greek settlers that lived there during the high point of the Greek empire, so he and Greece would be brothers! North Italy I see as the son of the Roman Empire and Etrusca, the Etruscans being the people who lived in the north of Italy before they were absorbed by the spreading Roman Empire. I think they would have come into existence in maybe the 5th or 6th century . . when the Roman Empire was crumbling and people were thinking of themselves more as 'Italians' than as 'Romans' and power was being wielded more locally. I also imagine Rome not fading right away, but hanging around to help raise his sons - the Roman legacy is very important for Italy, after all . . it's all around them, and inspired the Renaissance!
The Holy Roman Empire I see as coming into existence in the late 8th century, right before Charlemagne, or Karl der Grosse, was crowned the first Holy Roman Emperor on December 25, 800. His coronation in Rome by the Pope would probably have been the first time that little Ludwig, Veneziano, and Romano met each other (although they were probably too young to remember it later!). Oh my God these images are too cute!! This actually raises the possibility of Ludwig being older than Gilbert . . as the Teutonic knights were only formed at the end of the 12th century. All I've thought of for Ludwig's origin would be maybe Germania finding him wandering (or bundled in blankets on the ground) in the woods near Aachen (Charlemagne's seat of power).
France would be the son of Gallia (who I see as a woman, and Germania's sister) and would have come into existence shortly after the fall of Rome . . so . . 5th century?
Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus would have come into existence in the early 9th century, when the Slavic tribes were organized together by Scandinavian rulers right before the Golden Age of the Kievan Rus' and their conversion to Christianity. Maybe they are all the children of some Pan-Slavic nation?
England would have existed when the Roman Empire first arrived on his shores, I think, but possibly only originally represented Wessex, as that was the English kingdom that eventually united all the others under the rule of 'England.' So perhaps England was growing into a young lad by the time of Alfred the Great in the 9th century, the first to style himself 'King of the Anglo-Saxons'?

[aetheling.livejournal.com]

The Roman Empire himself would have been the Roman Republic and the Roman Kingdom before that, so . . he would have been around since at least the founding of the city of Rome in the 8th century BC. BB!Rome? Awwwww . .

[shinraisei.livejournal.com]

I've seen fans here view Canada as older than America (having been settled earlier; though Columbus discovered the "Americas" in 1492 so...), but the US gained independence years before Canada did and that's where most base the 'ages' of each country (So from 1776 for the US and 1867 for Canada).

But, in some Canadian history courses I've taken, we've started out with Pre-Columbian history (ending with John Cabot's voyage in 1497) and then skip to 1534 with Cartier and his voyages as the real beginnings of what would become Canada today. So I guess it could start from 1534 as New France.

(Though after the New France period, post-Seven Year War, it becomes Upper (today: Southwestern Ontario and Western Quebec) and Lower Canada (today: Quebec) in 1791 until 1873, then the Province of Canada from 1873 until 1867 where it becomes the Dominion of Canada (starting out with Ontario, Quebec, Nova Scotia and New Brunswick) retaining the 'Dominion' part until 1982, when it officially becomes "Canada".)

So it's tough to say. Could say Canada is 476 years old or 142. (I think in terms of achieving nationhood, which is one of the ways 'age' of a nation is determined it seems, then Canada is 142. However, the province of Quebec is considered as being 476 years old (Cities like Gaspé is 475, Québec City is 400, Montreal is 368 etc.) which is its date by settlement.). I consistently hear Canada being referred to as a "young nation" (same with the US actually) and on Canada Day the 'age' is always calculated from 1867.


Wonder what other Canucks think? I personally go with 1867.

[hagane-no-mame.livejournal.com]

In RL we'd go with the dominion date, but Hetalia-wise I think Canada as a collective conscious of peoples existed before then when Canada was still under the British. Sure everybody was technically a British subject, but I'm sure they wanted to be Canadian instead XD

[lovelylurker.livejournal.com]

My head cannon is that nations are as old as the civilizations/cultures to which they belong.

However, they're physical age is determined by the date of their complete rise to power as an independent, self-governing nation. Which is why, despite the Americas working on 500 years since discovery now, are still called "young nations" since their independence and physical appearance are still relatively young.

This also applies to Germany, because although the HRE is extremely old, Germany as an "adult" country has not been around that long.

Also I'm going with option "B" for Yao.

[saya-aensland.livejournal.com]

Himaruya is making that question hard, mostly because he looks at history through the lense of the present.

Let's take the Russian siblings. There's tiny Russia, Belarus and Ukraine. Tiny Ukraine talks about wanting to be the successor to Kievan Rus', so the scene takes place shortly before or after the collapse of Kievan Rus'.

That would make Belarus the Principality of Polotsk (which got annexed by Poland-Lithuania), Ukraine the Lands of Kiev or Principality of Pereyaslav (which got annexed by Poland-Lithuania) and Russia the Principality of Vladimir-Suzdal (which would, under Mongol sponsorship, become the Grand Duchy of Moscow).

Which leaves the gaping plothole of "where are the other Russian states (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kievan-rus-1015-1113-%28en%29.png)?" What happened to Chernigov? What happened to Novgorod? Where are they during that scene? Why aren't they mentioned? (answer: Himaruya actually sucks a lot at history)

This isn't even getting to the travesty of Spain and North Italy. Spain was a bunch of different nationstates that coalesced together through personal unions. Scotland's existence gets acknowledged, where's Aragon? Aragon's the one who brought South Italy into the Spanish household, damnit!

Speaking of the Italies, North Italy! First he represents the Republic of Venice (kicking Turkey's ass), then he represents the Duchy of Milan (personal union with Austria since the Italian Wars), and the rest of the north Italian states (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Italy_1494_v2.png) don't warrant a mention.

With Himaruya being this inconsistent, it's extremely hard to establish even a headcanon cutoff point for the birth of nation.

[vysnia-cerasus.livejournal.com]

About Spain: Himaruya mentioned plans for a possible separate Castile (who would've probably been "an older sister"), but it seems he abandoned those and made little Spain into Castile, as there's a doodle he did later where little Spain is yelling something like "I'll drive them out!" over and over (which some believe refers to the Reconquista).

If Spain is in fact Castile, I could see Aragon as being his brother or sister...who's probably just as unseen as Scotland would be right about now in the strips. It surprises me that no one's asked about Aragon yet, since they asked about Castile. Some think he could be Aragon and Castile could still be separate, but since Aragon's counted as a Catalan country, I don't they'd be him. That does make one wonder whether or not there'd be a Catalonia though...

[akillarian.livejournal.com]

Himaruya is making that question hard, mostly because he looks at history through the lense of the present.

I agree.

[lai-choi-san.livejournal.com]

To answer your question about China, I choose (B). China's antiquity is part of the cliché and is confirmed by archeology. As I was seeing an exhibition about old China at museum Cernuschi, I was struck by the cultural continuity over a huge period of time.

[roolley.livejournal.com]

Interesting discussion... My two cents:
Most people seem to thing Gaul = France. Which would make France very old indeed, but which is, uh, not really the case. The modern identity of France can't be said to be "gaullish". Gallia was just an province of the Roman Empire, which covered the area where the gaullish celts lived. Today the celt culture (and language) only lives on in Brittany ("un petit village résiste encore et toujours à l'envahisseur", indeed, lol.)
The Franks invaded the area roughly corresponding to modern-day France at the time of the fall of the Roman Empire ('Francia' is the alternate name of the Frankish Kingdom; and even today, in german, France is "Frankreich"). At the time of Charlemagne's (who was a Frankish King) death, his kingdom was split into three, ladidadida, West Francia, Middle Francia, East Francia - roughly France ("Île-de-France"), the Netherlands/Belgium/Lorraine/Switzerland/Lombardy/some departments of modern France, and, well, what would later become the Holy Roman Empire. In part. It's complicated.
So anyway: France ISN'T Gaul. France is a mix of celtic, latin and germanic ancestry (the Franks were germanic.) Which is why in my mind, France is 'only' about 1600 years old. In the early days of the Frankish Kingdoms he was the frankish kingdom whose capital was Paris (there was one. I can't remember its name); some little thing of no consequence.) Then after Charlemagne's death he was Western Francia. Then the Kingdom of France.
My headcanon: France is the son of Gallia (province of the Roman Empire, celtic tribes, etc) and of the Frankish Empire, and so is Germany's half-brother =P

Um, that was a bit TL;DR. Sorry.

[nanima8.livejournal.com]

Well, my opinion on England is that he was probably created around the 400s to the 500s because that was when the Anglosaxons began to live there, while before that the Celts lived there and they were driven off to Wales. The Celts had a completely different culture than the Anglosaxons so it isn't far off to think that there was a different nationtan before the Anglosaxons moved in. Maybe that's why his brothers hate Iggy..

[vysnia-cerasus.livejournal.com]

I could see France as either having been born by Gaul and Rome (after Rome conquered it, but that brings up some unfortunate implications right there), or his parents would be Gaul and Frank, though Rome would still try to claim some part of raising him.

It is pretty interesting when you look at the history of the Frankish Empire and the parts that it split into, so I think HRE (whether he's young Germany or not, but that is a whole other topic) could most certainly count as his brother. If you look at the Chibitalia strip too, France and baby!HRE seem to be hanging around each other with little Italy before Rome takes him to travel (The Frankish Empire also included parts of Northern Italy..).

Some see the Italies as having been born with the split of the Roman Empire (which would either be 285 or 395 AD?), but I tend to think Romano would be significantly older and not so much of a twin. "Italia" first only applied to the south of the peninsula, and then it spread north, plus there's what others have mentioned about it first being colonized by the Greeks. The independent drama CD apparently says something about Greek not being sure whether Rome is his father or not, so you have a possibility right there of him being the son of Ancient Greece by Rome. But the same CD says Byzantine is his mother, so it's not certain if that still holds true to the story either.

I'm not sure what to think about Hispania et. all, but I can see Spain as having been Castile. It'd also play into his relations with Portugal too, seeing as Portugal and Castile were at odds before the formation of the Kingdom. England's past is tricky headcanon too.

[vysnia-cerasus.livejournal.com]

*ugh, make not "Greece" and not "Greek".

But I could see some of the nation-characters having existed as babies back in the BC days, and if they weren't born then, then probably in early AD.

Besides China, I think another tricky headcanon subject would be Korea and what came before with the Three Kingdoms: When would Yongsoo would have been "born"? Then you factor in that Himaruya has intended North and South Korea to be separate characters, so then comes the question of when "North" was born and how. It probably shouldn't be thought of too deeply for the gag nature of the comic, but it's interesting to hear fan-theories on that one.

[mecchayumyum.livejournal.com]

When it comes to ages, I think that the nations that would be the oldest (even if they aren't characters in Hetalia) would be those of the fertile river valleys as human history dictats. I would like to say though that in my mind that America and Canada should both be rather ancient but because their characters are white this makes it so that this can't just be so, and didn't pop up until after europeans came to the area. That being said I always like to think that Canada is older than America because the area that is now Canada was first settled in the 1000's A.D. by vikings, and that America would be younger seeing how the first European settlements in the area, so he'd be 1585-1607 as to when he first popped up (which honestly adds to something that annoys me about Sweden and Finland being worried after the Neatherlands kicks them out of New Sweden, the lost colony of Roanoke was founded in 1585 and Jamestown in 1607 New Sweden wasn't founded until 1638 and New Amdestrdam was founded in 1614 so wouldn't the Neatherlands have seen America before Sweden and Finland?). I must admit though as someone who studied history in the Fairfax County Virginia School system (which is a fabulous system of public schools) I may be completely biased to feel that Virginia's founding=America's "birth".

When it comes to European history I'm afraid I don't really know a whole lot as to who would be older than who. Exept well I'd think that Mama Greece woulod be older than Rome and Germania. *shurgs*

[sara-rojo.livejournal.com]

Well, I don't know about Asia, but my headcanon tells me that Mama Egypt was around sooner than any other canon character in the West...then Mama Greece came along and they had great hatesex for a while, till Mama Greece totally conquered Mama Egypt at some point.
Then Rome appeared and quickly conquered both and had kids with both of them, which is when they started to fade. And then he went and conquered some more. He got his ass kicked by Germania who came from the North, killed Iberia and took in her sons, whom he named Hispannia and Lusitania (Spain and Portugal), found little Gallia (aka France), kicked Germania's ass, found little Turkey (then called differently), easily conquered little Albion, whom he renamed Britannia, and waged war against his unruly brothers. And then, when everything went to hell, Germania killed him, teen!Turkey took over the Eastern part of the Empire and kidnapped little Greece, Germania tried to control the west but a bunch of new kid nations of new appearance (Austria, Switzerland, all the germanic ones) with the help of Rome's first conquests (Hispannia, Lusitania and Gallia, mostly) ended him.
Those first conquests, being older than the new ones, quickly gathered power so they wouldn't suffer the same fate.
And thus, Europe beganXD

Europe is crazy.

[seminiray.livejournal.com]

This.