[Discussion] How old are the nations?

[pineapple-toast.livejournal.com]

 I was wondering: At what point does a nation-tan start existing?


My first post on a lj community! :D

It's canon that baby America was found in the wilderness as the European nations began to colonize the Americas, but when did the really old nations begin to exist?

Case in point: China.
Do you think the nation-tan Wang Yao first appeared
(A) during the mythological Three Sovereigns and Five Emperors period (2852-2205 BC)
(B) at the beginning of the debated Xia dynasty (2070-1600 BC)
(C) around the time of the earliest discovered Chinese characters in the Shang dynasty (1556-1046 BC)
(D) in the Qin dynasty, the unification of the warring states (221-206 BC)
(E) in 1912, after the abdication of the last emperor
(F) in 1949, after the communist revolution
thank you wikipedia

What are your opinions? Headcanons about all countries are welcome!

Comments

[raienn.livejournal.com]

The only ancient nation I know any history about is China. In my headcanon, Yao first appeared during the Legendary Sages period. Definitely. He probably doesn't remember much of his childhood though, particularly during the Xia dynasty since it's still one of those "did it happen or not" kind of things. He probably had to tough it out like Arthur has (in fanon). The Qin unification was probably him just getting stronger and taking more of the warring states into his house (kind of like how Japan had his prefects and such) - but I wouldn't know what would have happened to all of them after the unification.

Ah it's not too clear but all I know is that I definitely think he was around with the sages.

[xblkdragonx.livejournal.com]

well...according to Hetalia, Yao is 4000 years old so somewhere around the Xia dynasty perhaps?

When I think of nations, I think of when they're first recognized as countries (i.e. have a ruler governing a large piece of land).

then again...that doesn't apply to US not does it since he was a colony when the European nations found him....

[daihua.livejournal.com]

Yao is definitely around by B, most likely as toddler!Yao.
Alfred is white when he is found,meaning that by that time, even though there weren't as many white settlers as the natives,the European settlers already had enough sense of a 'country' to have Alfred exist.
During Xia, though the borders weren't really that large, there was already a sense of China or 中国，the Middle Kingdom.
Thus Yao appears. As for the personification of the other tribes, in my headcanon, they disappeared/died similar to HRE since Yao just annexed them all and killed them when their people lost the sense of a independent coutnry.Only Yao survived through out the years and grew into the China we are familiar with today.

[seraphoftales.livejournal.com]

According to a very old piece of work by Himaruya, Egypt is 6000 years old... So I don't really know what period he was born... I know Italy was bron around 476 when Rome died, maybe a bit earliear... so around 1600 or so old... Japan was born, as shown by the Wiki timeline, in 660 BC. And that's all I have.

[hagane-no-mame.livejournal.com]

Except there is now a mama Egypt though she never appears. She would be what we call ancient Egypt and not the Egypt we know now. Like how Ancient Rome does not = Italy(because he died but somehow his descendants survived and went on to become Italy).

[hagane-no-mame.livejournal.com]

You can pretty much cross off D-F for China. There were many hundred years old dynasties before the Qing and though the rest of the world didn't know about China he was already existing and doing his thing. The last emperor abdicating should not have any kind of effect on the existence of a country, China's existence never depended on any self declared divine rulers(or any other country for that matter) since China kept replacing them anyway.

What's curious is that China survived the communist revolution and came out intact where as other old civilizations like Ancient Egypt/Greece/Persia/Rome simply disappeared.

[poochyena123.livejournal.com]

Mama Egypt and Mama Greece are like the first nations to appear from what I see...Mama Egypt in RL is the oldest civilization and I saw Egypt's old profile he was born 3000 BC. Mama Greece is like a thousand year younger than Mama Egypt.

[poochyena123.livejournal.com]

"What's curious is that China survived the communist revolution and came out intact where as other old civilizations like Ancient Egypt/Greece/Persia/Rome simply disappeared."

If you read their history..it's really rough and you notice one episode Rome is all beaten up hence why chibitalia said "That's why he disappeared". Ancient Egypt and Ancient Greece got really torn up by so many battles and being Conquered.

[hagane-no-mame.livejournal.com]

During China's civil war which was consequently interrupted by Japanese invasion China got torn up pretty badly as well. You could argue a good chunk of him was removed from himself and became Taiwan. Even if the damage doesn't nearly compare with other ancient civilizations, with the cultural revolution enforced by the winning communist side you could say a lot of China was pretty much not the same after. Yet in Hetalia he doesn't exhibit any kind of physical/mental change.

[poochyena123.livejournal.com]

Japan did left a massive scar on his back when he broke away from China. China is just to lively about himself XD

[seraphoftales.livejournal.com]

Okay, but see here's the thing. Can somebody point me in the direction of where Mama!Egypt first got mentioned? Because I can't tell if it's canon or people just made assumptions that just because there was a Mama!Greece there must be a Mama!Egypt

[romanitas.livejournal.com]

It's mentioned in Rome's character profile that he fell in love with both Egypt's mom and Greece's mom at first sight.

[hagane-no-mame.livejournal.com]

There was also a strip about why Greece doesn't build underground tunnels for subways and stuff, because of all the artifacts he keeps finding from mama Greece's days. Something similar was mentioned about Egypt and mama Egypt.

[musubi7.livejournal.com]

I'm part of the very small, fringe house whose headcannon states that Nations are born, not made. I've got three variation headcannons which determine age, but they basically form around the idea that Nations grow into their cultures, that the birth of a nation (no pun intended) is not literally its birth.

1) It depends on the parents and outside influences. The Italy bros were born before the Roman Empire collapsed. 2) Empire meets Indigenous people make babeh colonies. America is born before America the Nation is created. 3) And the Why Do You Exist Nations, which of now are just HRE and Prussia. HRE was born after the area of the "HRE" was formed as a last ditch effort to create unity with the German people. Prussia is a half breed. Half human-half nation and his existence continues to boggle the minds of the other Nations.

[lai-choi-san.livejournal.com]

If France is Gallia, then, according to the carbon dating of the megalithic monuments, he is 7000 years old.

[seraphoftales.livejournal.com]

So then there is a strip! Would it be too much trouble to give me a link...? Sorry, is curious

[seraphoftales.livejournal.com]

Ah, to clarify, not the one about Greece, the one about Egypt... Sorry if I'm being a bother...

[daihua.livejournal.com]

Well,the language was still intact, and even with communism, the beliefs of the people didn't change much either.
I know other people will argue against this, but in reality, communism really didn't change China in such a scale that Yao would exhibit any kind of physical/mental change. Yao has lived through more terrible times; I guess he's just used to it all, the sudden changes.

[trudimo.livejournal.com]

I don't know much about China, but I'd go for B :)

But I could say something about my country... I'm not exactly sure when Finland was born, but I have headcanon that he was just a kid when Sweden "took him home" somewhere around 12th-13th century and that he was still more like a teenager (16-18 years?) until WWII, after which he quickly grew up. This is because Finland was quite underdeveloped and agrarian country until the 50s, but industrialized very fast and is now one of the most prosperous countries in the world. This is probably the reason why Himaruya described him "adult-like" even though Finland is actually rather young country. :D

[aetheling.livejournal.com]

Modern Greece would be the son of Mama Greece and the Roman Empire, as so much Roman influence was spread to Greece during that time, and his first incarnation as a growing boy would have been as the Byzantine Empire (the golden sash he wears as a kid reflects this, I think) after the fall of Rome (generally held as the 5th century), with Constantinople being the center of the new empire and the 'second Rome.' I see him as being at least a young teenager by the time he's conquered in 1453 by Turkey, and a young adult upon his independence in 1830.
For the Italies, I think that South Italy is actually also the son of Mama Greece and the Roman Empire, because of the Greek settlers that lived there during the high point of the Greek empire, so he and Greece would be brothers! North Italy I see as the son of the Roman Empire and Etrusca, the Etruscans being the people who lived in the north of Italy before they were absorbed by the spreading Roman Empire. I think they would have come into existence in maybe the 5th or 6th century . . when the Roman Empire was crumbling and people were thinking of themselves more as 'Italians' than as 'Romans' and power was being wielded more locally. I also imagine Rome not fading right away, but hanging around to help raise his sons - the Roman legacy is very important for Italy, after all . . it's all around them, and inspired the Renaissance!
The Holy Roman Empire I see as coming into existence in the late 8th century, right before Charlemagne, or Karl der Grosse, was crowned the first Holy Roman Emperor on December 25, 800. His coronation in Rome by the Pope would probably have been the first time that little Ludwig, Veneziano, and Romano met each other (although they were probably too young to remember it later!). Oh my God these images are too cute!! This actually raises the possibility of Ludwig being older than Gilbert . . as the Teutonic knights were only formed at the end of the 12th century. All I've thought of for Ludwig's origin would be maybe Germania finding him wandering (or bundled in blankets on the ground) in the woods near Aachen (Charlemagne's seat of power).
France would be the son of Gallia (who I see as a woman, and Germania's sister) and would have come into existence shortly after the fall of Rome . . so . . 5th century?
Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus would have come into existence in the early 9th century, when the Slavic tribes were organized together by Scandinavian rulers right before the Golden Age of the Kievan Rus' and their conversion to Christianity. Maybe they are all the children of some Pan-Slavic nation?
England would have existed when the Roman Empire first arrived on his shores, I think, but possibly only originally represented Wessex, as that was the English kingdom that eventually united all the others under the rule of 'England.' So perhaps England was growing into a young lad by the time of Alfred the Great in the 9th century, the first to style himself 'King of the Anglo-Saxons'?

[shinraisei.livejournal.com]

I've seen fans here view Canada as older than America (having been settled earlier; though Columbus discovered the "Americas" in 1492 so...), but the US gained independence years before Canada did and that's where most base the 'ages' of each country (So from 1776 for the US and 1867 for Canada).

But, in some Canadian history courses I've taken, we've started out with Pre-Columbian history (ending with John Cabot's voyage in 1497) and then skip to 1534 with Cartier and his voyages as the real beginnings of what would become Canada today. So I guess it could start from 1534 as New France.

(Though after the New France period, post-Seven Year War, it becomes Upper (today: Southwestern Ontario and Western Quebec) and Lower Canada (today: Quebec) in 1791 until 1873, then the Province of Canada from 1873 until 1867 where it becomes the Dominion of Canada (starting out with Ontario, Quebec, Nova Scotia and New Brunswick) retaining the 'Dominion' part until 1982, when it officially becomes "Canada".)

So it's tough to say. Could say Canada is 476 years old or 142. (I think in terms of achieving nationhood, which is one of the ways 'age' of a nation is determined it seems, then Canada is 142. However, the province of Quebec is considered as being 476 years old (Cities like Gaspé is 475, Québec City is 400, Montreal is 368 etc.) which is its date by settlement.). I consistently hear Canada being referred to as a "young nation" (same with the US actually) and on Canada Day the 'age' is always calculated from 1867.


Wonder what other Canucks think? I personally go with 1867.

[aetheling.livejournal.com]

The Roman Empire himself would have been the Roman Republic and the Roman Kingdom before that, so . . he would have been around since at least the founding of the city of Rome in the 8th century BC. BB!Rome? Awwwww . .

[hagane-no-mame.livejournal.com]

I agree it's fair to say the change caused by communism was not drastic enough to cause existence threatening damage to Yao, but I definitely think his mental health did not come out unscathed. Though he adapted relatively well.

[kuromitsu.livejournal.com]

About England, he couldn't have originally represented Wessex if he had existed before the Romans arrived ^^;; seeing that the Saxons arrived a few centuries later.

IMO he was born when the Saxons arrived. That's the only way it makes sense to me, and it's also explans why he's the youngest (because if he'd been around before that, or even before the Romans, he'd be as old as his brothers) and why his brothers hated him even when he was small.

[hagane-no-mame.livejournal.com]

I don't remember what the strip is called, or if there was even a strip(sometimes this kind of info comes in the form of accompanying text) but I'll let you know if I can find it in the scanslation index.