Nations, Moral Ambiguity, and World War II

[youshi-semenjyu.livejournal.com]

Grüß Gott, Hetalia Fans!

This topic has been bothering me for a few days; I suppose I'm a bit more sensitive to it than I realized, so I am here asking for your opinion in order to perhaps find peace with my dilemma.

As we all know, a number of nations (Not just Nazi Germany) committed horrific atrocities to people during World War II.

Here, to save you from my wall of text-



What did the nations think of all this? Were they indifferent? Horrified but powerless to stop it? Any number of other reactions?

Germany, Austria, and Poland (and most likely Belgium, if not others, though they were occupied territories)had to deal with Hitler and his concentration camps, the ghettos, and, in Poland's case, the infamous Warsaw Ghetto, and his ethnic cleansing. The Kristallnact, the 'disappearing' of over six thousand people Hitler deemed undesirable, including Roma, mentally and physically handicapped, Jews, gypsies, and homosexuals.

US had to deal with the US Internment Camps for Japanese Americans, which though not as bad as the German concentration camps, were still rather abyssal. The dropping of two atomic bombs on civilian targets in Japan. Though it may have stopped the War in the Pacific Theatre, no one can tell me that it was not horrifying.

Japan and the Rape of Nanking. War is always horrible, but what the Japanese did during their invasion of China was a crime against humanity in and of itself.

Russia had to deal with Stalin and Stalin's own brand of political murder. It's said that Stalin killed more of his own people than Hitler ever killed during his Holocaust.

In the aftermath of the war, the Allies refused to administer enough aid to ethnic Germans, many of which were innocent of any wrongdoing, and were essentially being punished for being German. Thousands, if not millions, died because of lack of food, medical care, and other necessities. When the Vatican send aid to the Germans, the Allies REFUSED it and sent it back.



Here is my dilemma. Being a fan of Hetalia, and a fan of history, I would rather not think that my favorite countries condoned such actions, because naturally, we want to think the best of the characters we care about. I know that Germany mentions once about his crazy boss in a slightly negative manner. He even expresses minor regret when ordered to forcibly annex Austria in the Anschluss (as Italy begs him not to), but then he states that he has his orders to do so. So it's almost as though the leaders have some power over the nation, probably more so if the leader is extremely popular with the people. It's as though the nation HAS to obey their leader and the will of their people, regardless.

I would like to think that, especially for Germany and Austria, being nations and holding a great love for all things that are theirs (their people, cultures, etc), that they would be appalled by the treatment of everyone that they consider theirs. Jewish or Roma, they were still Austrian, they are still German. (Poland and Belgium just wanted Germany to get the hell out of their house, I'm sure.)

After a while, do you think even the nations grew tired of the warmongering and the increasingly bloody battles and realized that, at least for the Axis' part, the battle was fruitless?

But do you think about this? Insights? Similar dilemmas?

BONUS QUESTION:

If the health of a nation depends on the life and vitality of its people and culture and reflects that, do you think that things like the Holocaust would be reflected as a sickness? The larger the negative effects of war in the nation, the worst the wounds and the worst the illnesses?


EDIT:

I want to thank everyone who gave their input. I really do feel a bit better about all this thanks to the comments. (It also helps me work my way around RPS and such that deal with the time period!) ...I think I take things a little too seriously. XD

Comments

[lai-choi-san.livejournal.com]

But the old Prussian military was in fact a center of resistance to Hitler's control.
Just out of curiosity, could you tell me more about this ?

[kisaragifan.livejournal.com]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20_July_plot

[lai-choi-san.livejournal.com]

Oh, I see where it comes from. It's the problem with blockbusters. If something is mentioned in that kind of movie, it exists. If something is not mentioned, it doesn't exist. Just because there were some Prussians among the plotters (btw, Stauffenberg was from Württemberg and Bavaria) doesn’t mean that Prussia was the stronghold of the German Resistance. It’s the tree which hides the forest (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_resistance).

PS : I wasn't ranting against you. I know that your answer was purely objective.

[clowderheart.livejournal.com]

I read a fic like that, actually. With the resistance, and Prussia banging his head against the wall every time Hitler survived and assassination attempt.



Oh...Way to be a big brother, Gilbo. ;_;

[hagane-no-mame.livejournal.com]

However, after the war, he told the Allies he was primarily responsible for the atrocities

Is there anything to support this? I always thought the Allies were the ones who came to the conclusion that they would have to dissolve Prussia to rid Germany of its war ambitions.

Oh and there was a doujin by the name Risorgimento in which the second part is about how the Allies decide to punish Prussia more severely in Germany's stead and because they were convinced he was the source of Germany's militarism. They dissolved his "country"(by WWII he had become a free state of Germany though) which should have effectively killed him but he lived.

[hagane-no-mame.livejournal.com]

I see. That's a nice premise, I love when Prussia does anything that shows off his big brother qualities.

Actually pialet posted the third part to the Risorgimento doujin to the community earlier today and you can find the previous parts with the doujin tag and scanslation:doujin tag.

[lai-choi-san.livejournal.com]

I didn't mean historically - I meant that as a possible fic premise, an explanation of how they would come to that conclusion.
I admit that I was all WTF at first. I’m relieved.

Speaking of the resistance in the Reich (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_resistance), it didn’t only consist of the few Prussians who took part in the 20 July plot. There were resisters from other parts of Germany, the most well-known being the members of the White Rose (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Rose) in Munich and the Pirates of the Edelweiss (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edelweiss_Pirates), mainly in Cologne. Ludwig had his resisters too.

[vysnia-cerasus.livejournal.com]

Oh, I would love to see more fanworks dealing with the Prussian resistance. I've seen folks theorize how Prussia would be the "bigger nazi" because of the militarism (and how the Nazis hailed it in propaganda), but really, there's a lot of stuff out there about the resistance in history and it'd be nice to see more of the historical-themed works explore that part.

[lai-choi-san.livejournal.com]

I would love to see more fanworks dealing with the German resistance as a whole, with the Pirates of the Edelweiss in Cologne, the White Rose in Munich or these Germans who sided with the French Resistance. It would be sad to forget the resisters from Ludwig’s side.

[vysnia-cerasus.livejournal.com]

Those would be pretty interesting to see done too, if someone wrote it well enough. The sad thing is that when you see some historical fanworks, people feel compelled to try and make the nations "darker and edgier" to the point where they basically don't resemble the characters in the comic at all and might as well be OCs. Especially if they're the more "controversial" nations when it comes to events like WWII D:

[lai-choi-san.livejournal.com]

Yes, it's very Manichean and the Axis characters are not recognizable. This is why I prefer when the "normal" and the bad sides are shown. I've read a fic taking place during WW2 in which Ludwig had a doppelganger named Third Reich, it was a clever trick.
There is another reason why I would like to see more things related to the Resistance. I think that these people, by being models for the last generations, have helped their country (or country-tan Hetalia-wise) to survive mentally. It's true for the Axis but also for the occupied nations (Jean Moulin is the main character in two of my favourite fics with Francis).

[gisho.livejournal.com]

It's not *organized* German resistance, but I recalled an interesting fic you might want to read and finally found the link again: http://hetalia-kink.livejournal.com/4567.html?thread=7667927#t7667927

Very dark, but very well done.

[lai-choi-san.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the find ! It's a really good fic indeed ! I particularly like when both sides of a country are shown.

[konstantya.livejournal.com]

Regarding Prussia's role, I see it in a similar way (I think--headcanon about this is still in development). Maybe it's just because I'm fond of brotherly love between them, but I think Prussia took the nastier jobs of WWII upon himself, to protect Germany. A lot of Germans didn't even know about the bad things the Nazis were doing until later in the war, and so I see Germany as being rather naive about the whole thing. To him, it's probably more of a normal war, about nationalism and getting back the shit he lost in WWI, so of course he's supportive of Hitler.

That being, I don't think Prussia enjoys the craptastic jobs (like the Holocaust), but he sees himself as being able to tolerate the emotional implications better than his brother. (Because whether you believe the Germany = HRE theory or not, as far as conscious mentality goes, modern Germany is technically even younger than America.) I guess Prussia's kind of a double agent of sorts--working for Hitler because he has to, but at the same time supporting the resistance against him.

(Hope that all made sense and wasn't tl;dr. ^^')