hetalia | [Headcanon Discussion] How old are the nations?

I'm really liking the Nordics for quite some time now, so their ages I can pretty much give an inkling of off the top of my head.

I know Denmark was formed in the Middle Ages, I think? Sweden was in the 15th century. Norway was like a century or two later. Finland gained independence near the end of the... 19th century? And Iceland, the youngest, only got their independence at the beginning of the last century.

But if I made a huge mistake with those (and I'm pretty sure I might have), I'd like someone to correct me, pronto.

From what I know Poland as a nation existed from VIIIth century or longer(it's hard to tell when Slavs were separated, I hate that they aren't related in APH), but in every book there is a date of 966 when Piast dynasty adopted Christianity. I wonder why in Hetalia he's one of the youngest characters but it fits him.

Lithuania has much more interesting story behind his birthday date XD Two years ago there were celebrations of Lithuania's millenium. People connect it with first written mention of their country's name. It was in a German chronicle:
"[In 1009] St. Bruno, an archbishop and monk, who was called Boniface, was struck in the head by Pagans during the 11th year of this conversion at the Rus and Lithuanian border, and along with 18 of his followers, entered heaven on March 9th."

So yeah, probably Poland is 966, Lithuania is 1009.

Iceland was independent in the medieval times though, and Finland had a national identity long before we had independence. I've a feeling it's sort of canon that a nation exists from the moment it's aware of itself, iow has a national identity - like how baby America existed long before he was independent.

I'll just address the nations you mentioned in your post, as I probably should do my homework.

Himaruya has stated that China is four thousand years old...but, I imagine him as being only a little over two thousand years old. I'm not sure exactly when he would have been "born", but I imagine that he reached adolescence during the Warring States Period (476-221 BC) and then became the nation representing China as a whole with the start of the Qin Dynasty (221-206 BC) after subduing his siblings. (His parent was the representative of China as a whole from the Xia Dynasty (c. 2100 - c. 1600 BC) to the end of the Spring and Autumn Period (722-476 BC).)

In a word, "yes". To elaborate, America and Canada have existed since the Nordics (and Finland) first landed on the shores of the New World...however, as they promptly left, the little ones were on their own until nations started showing up again during the Age of Discoveries.

I had a nice, well-planned back story for the Kievan Rus' siblings thought out...and then some chucklehead went and changed the dates in Wikipedia before I could write them down. [le sigh] I imagined they were each a principality of Kievan Rus'--Ukraine was Galicia-Volhynia, Russia was Vladimir-Suzdal, and Belarus was Polotsk. They originally had many more older siblings, and an uncle/aunt (Novgorod Republic), but they were all dead after the Mongol and Tatar invasions. They all appeared at about the same time, in the late 9th century A.D.

The Italies, I'm still not sure about. I'm trying to decide whether the Italian regions were "born" before or after them (leaning toward "before"). From a line spoken by HRE, they've been around since the tenth century at least.

Hmm, I'm sorry, you'll really have to pardon me. And you have a good point there- regarding that a nation exists as soon as they're aware of themselves, since Finland in Hetalia looks to be one of the more mature nations, especially since he was featured in the founding of America comic strips. Cool, thanks!

My guess is that they're all pretty damn old. I think Yao's supposed to be like 4000 years old or thereabouts. Yet he looks like one of the youngest. XD

This is a very hard topic to discuss because we'd all have to assume the circumstances of their "births". I think America had been around long before England, France, and Finland showed up in the new world. There is a common theory that the nation-tans came into existence because that particular landmass and/or boundary had enough people to establish a form of identity. You have to admit, though, that the personifications don't have much power or say-so in anything that goes on in their nations. It's like their existence is an enigma all in itself. They don't really serve a purpose, except to say "Oh, look, I'm "blank" nation." So the real question is why they were born in the first place.

Then again, considering the series, they were probably just born for our amusement. XD

So, in conclusion, it's hard to really pin-point a nation-tan's age. Too many things to factor in and, in the end, it would all be based on opinion until Hidekaz reveals his own headcanons. Till then, they're all simply "old as hell" to me. ^^

It depends on what you mean, but I'll take your question based off civilization.

Now, let's pretend that the APH Characters don't exist. China dates back to the Xia dynasty about 2,100 BC (about 4,100 years ago). The Egyptian civilization dates back to 3,150 BC (about 5,150 years ago) when upper and lower Egypt were unified under the first pharaoh. This would make Egypt older technically--Ancient Egypt at least.

From what I've gathered from the history profs over time, Ancient Egypt would be the eldest known recorded country in the world--civilization-wise--Greece, China, and Rome (who at the time was an empire) following after respectively. And then Egypt fell and a new Egypt rose from it. Long story short, Egypt came first, died first, then lived again.

As for which country is older as a character from APH, I'd say Turkey's the oldest living APH character whose form which did not change--save for physical age--since the Ottoman Empire, which was around alongside the Roman Empire.

So look at it this way: Mama Egypt was the eldest, Mama Greece was her friend and slightly younger than her, China is close to the same age as Mama Greece. Grandpa Rome is slightly younger than China and Mama Greece. And Turkey was a teenager when they were alive (minus China). Both China and Turkey outlived them all.

Note that APH characters and the civilizations themselves are completely different so my description might be vague, if so tell me and I can explain better c:

It would appear to be so... I mean for America...hnnngh, I'm forgetting my U.S. history but the whole Swedish settlements in the new world before Netherlands decided to take over... that was in the late 1600s-early 1700s right? So that was when America was more or less first sighted. Ang geez, how many skirmishes did England and France have over the New World anyways? The only one I know of is the French-Indian War, but was that the one that gave England total supremacy of the Atlantic seaboard???

aaaaargh...

As for the Rus siblings... Ukraine might've gotten her start with the first batches of Slavs that migrated to her place around the 6th century A.D. or the Rus Khaganate... But then in that case, Russia would be born around the start of the Rurikid Dysnasty and Belarus was born just as the Kievan Rus was formed?? uuuuuurgh...

China is 5000 years old, starting with the Three Kingdoms. That's my headcanon at least

The Italies are hard... on a side note jjblue made a great piece on welding together canon and actual historical facts... XD

It depends on what you mean, but I'll take your question based off civilization.

Now, let's pretend that the APH Characters don't exist. China dates back to the Xia dynasty about 2,100 BC (about 4,100 years ago). The Egyptian civilization dates back to 3,150 BC (about 5,150 years ago) when upper and lower Egypt were unified under the first pharaoh. This would make Egypt older technically--Ancient Egypt at least.

From what I've gathered from the history profs over time, Ancient Egypt would be the eldest known recorded country in the world--civilization-wise--Greece, China, and Rome (who at the time was an empire) following after respectively. And then Egypt fell and a new Egypt rose from it. Long story short, Egypt came first, died first, then lived again.

As for which country is older as a character from APH, I'd say Turkey's the oldest living APH character whose form which did not change--save for physical age--since the Ottoman Empire, which was around alongside the Roman Empire.

So look at it this way: Mama Egypt was the eldest, Mama Greece was her friend and slightly younger than her, China is close to the same age as Mama Greece. Grandpa Rome is slightly younger than China and Mama Greece. And Turkey was a teenager when they were alive (minus China). Both China and Turkey outlived them all.

Note that APH characters and the civilizations themselves are completely different so my description might be vague, if so tell me and I can explain better c: And so sorry for constantly reposting, I keep noticing mistakes in my comments @_@

I pretty much imagine Germany to be one of youngest, being "born" in the 1820s or around that timespan, so that he would appear a young teenager around the revolution in 1848/49. And then he had a growth spurt and in 1871, when the German Empire was founded, so that he appeared as 18 years old...

Yeah, I put too much thought into it. That's why the explanation is so short. XD

Um, yeah. The baby Nordic pics from Volume 3 alone, the ones that are Viking if not pre-Viking era kill that one. Also, all the strips that take place where Finland is there despite not being independent(Polish-Swedish Wars, Battle for America...etc). For their ages as political bodies, you're technically right, but that's not really what it takes in Hetalia. XD

Being super-Nordics-obsessive (not to mention OCD on details) as I am, I've devoted a lot of thought to this. Copypasta'd from my fic notes:

"[You could put the Nordics as being around at least by] various parts of the Early Iron Age (0CE-500CE)... There was quite a bit of working around I had to do at various times, especially since the concept of a "Nation" doesn't really exist as we know it by this point. 800 CE marks the start of the Viking Age, so here the Nordics are more like proto-Nations than actual Nations at this point and still in what is technically "pre-history" for them. Just kids, really, which is why their personalities aren't quite as they'll be later. But being as the concept of a "Nation" didn't really exist in the way we think of it at this point, it's more than likely the conditions for "personifications of the land and people" coming into existence were a bit different then than they are now-or rather just not set in stone, given the presence of colony!America."

Explains how China can be 4000 years old while only being 2000 as a political entity. Politics being a part of a "Nation's Existence" is a pretty recent development, methinks. And it's not like Germania was ever a cohesive political body either, yet he was still around too.

Am I thinking too much about this? ~DEFINITELY~. And I'm sure Hima-papa is laughing at us all somewhere, probably while counting his stacks of fangirl-money and being fed grapes by scantily clad harem ladies.

Well in canon America doesn't make an appearance until the 16th century, but I guess it's possible he's existed longer.

I personally think he appeared sometime after England chased off Spain, just going by his physical features.

In the 14th century-setting strip where he and Lithuania, erm, Jadwiga and Jogaila ;-) get married, though, he tells the story of the Wawel dragon, and talks about his king killing it - Krakow is first mentioned in documents in 966, but as an already prosperous city, so Poland in older in the manga than his official birth date! (Perhaps, seeing as he's a like, totally pious nation, he prefers to celebrate the anniversary of his baptism!)

And I now have a great desire to write about Lithuania punching St Bruno :-)

Traditionally, France is traced back to Clovis (Vth century) which would mean that France is over 1500.

Canada -as the one we know in Hetalia- is born around 1534 (btw, his name was Kanata) : Matthew is 477.

It is said that Switzerland was born on 1291 (year of the Federal Charter) : Vash is 720 (but many historians think he is a few decades older).

Russia seems to be born around 988 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kievan_Rus%27 ) , so he is around 1023.

And I'll stop there ! :)

awww, do it!! I miss your Lithuania fanficton ;__; I laughed so hard when my friend from Vilnius told me that story.

anyway, yes - I think that Poland was always super proud of his Catholicism XD; Most of school books about history of Poland starts from 966, all that happened before that is usually very sketchy XD;

Ireland's lucky in that from the 5th century there were suddenly really, really obsessive monastic record keepers who wanted to write about their wonderful ancestors, even if they did it in a way that is, um . . . rather imaginative! So there's a fair amount on 5th century politics and so on, some about the previous century and then a lot of making stuff up! (Hey, did you know that - just like Rome, honest guys!! - Ireland was colonised by refugee from Troy? One of whom married the king of Egypt's daughter? Plus, ancient Irish people were totally as awesome as the Assyrians! . . . yeah.

In regards to Canada and America, I usually approxiamate their ages back to their first official founded colony. For Canada, that's 1605 and for America, that's 1607.

I discount St. Augustine because it was founded as a port and not a colonial settlement, and because it wasn't one of the original 13 that became the United States.

However, I allow the twins could have existed earlier. I like to imagine they popped up together at about the same time.

Yeah, I should've known, though Hetalia wasn't in mind when I wrote the comment, if I can say in my defense. XD But that's true. And it gives more reason for territories still under a nation's rule to have a personification despite not being fully independent, e.g.: Puerto Rico, Virgin Islands, Gibraltar...

That icon is very adorable, by the by~!

It's right that you can say Germany was "born" after the defeat of Napoleon with the congress of vienna 1815 as the german confederation or already in 1806 after the dissolution of the holy roman empire as the "Rheinbund". But if you look really, really closely, one can say that the Holy Roman Empire was the first "Germany" in some way ( the german name is "heiliges römisches Reich deutscher Nation"--> Holy Roman Empire of the german nation).

So apparently it's not that easy to say when he was born.... because we often tried to become one (sounds creapy >_<'), but somehow we failed the whole time till Bismarck and Prussia showed up, kicked France and Austria and founded the German Empire in 1871....

thanks to Bismarck and Prussia -.-'

I think that the first time a nation called himself with its name of nation, it was born in that moment.
Well... a population in a certain territory develops a culture, sometimes a language, decides to be a nation other than near territories.
About Norway, for example, it was indipendent (I don't remember when...), then it was conquered by Denmark and 4 centuries later by Sweden, but it mantains its traditions, despite Denmark tried to make Norway forget its culture... Norwegians called this period with a term that recall someting about sleeping times, i can't remember the exaxt term (i know it in italian). Norway "slept" for long centuries but it was always exixted...

Eh, Norway... its territories are dividen into several small indipendent territory before being unified under the same king, but we have got Viking!Norway yet. Can it be possible?

Actually we get a lot of clues if we read the comic strips. As mentioned above, it seems that nations can exist before actually being politically nations. Oh, and I think that the nations physical age mirrors their real age to some extent (China being an exception, but then again, Asians always seem very young-looking to me even tho they'd be kinda old).

Grandpa Rome is still a headache for me. I've always wondered how he still existed when Italia was having "The feeling of Renaissance" and painting with him. Because that would be at least 1300 even thought Rome officially collapsed 330 >_>; Then again, I've told to myself maybe he lived with the power of Constantinople before fully disappearing 1453.(But then again, Rome seems to be a rather active ghost-nation.)

Anyway, regarding to the Chibitalia strips, Italia existed before 1400. That would make him 700+ years old. Same goes to HRE because in the strips, he seems to be around the same age as Chibitalia. Both of their physical age is 20 (IF thought that Germany = HRE).

France and Spain seemed to be older children when bullying Chibitalia. Also, their physical age is older (France 26, Spain 25). In the strips Austria and Hungary are about their age, too. France, being one of the oldest, is probably around 1500(Francia), Spain a bit younger.

Ameica's physical age is 19. He was "officially" found by Columbus in the 1400s (Spain was fishing tomatoes and Finland + others found him) and make him a century or two younger than Italia (20), making him about 600+ yrs old. Because I don't think he was there when the Vikings found America.

And that takes us to the Nordics. Finland's physical age is 20 and Sweden's 21. Denmark, I think, is a bit older than Sweden. England is 23 and he has been shown as a chibi when Chibi-Denmark came to bully him (Viking time) in the 1000s = England around 1100 yrs old.

Omg, my brains are crashing down- anyway I think:
Italy (20), about 700+ yrs.
S.Italy (22-23), about 1000 yrs,
France (26), about 1500 yrs.
Spain (25), about 1400 yrs.
Austria, Hungary, about the same (or a bit younger) as France/Spain.
...what would make Switzerland kinda old, too (the Chibination strips with Austria).
America (19), about 600 yrs.
England (23), about 1100 yrs.
Denmark, around England's age.
Sweden (21), about 1000-900 yrs.
Finland (20), about 700+ yrs.
Greece (omg 27), about 1600 yrs?

... or something like that. It makes SOME sense, even though there are a lot of problems. But I am trying to think by the canon info more than by the real, historical one. I don't think Hima was even trying to be specific with all this... But then there is Lithuania (19). And chibi-Lithuania was around when Hungary was small (if I remember right) so... uh? Also I have no idea about the growth rhythm of the nations (America wtf), so I'm just pondering.

Russia etc. are the interesting ones, I think. Ivan's physical age is canonically Unknown-with-a-purpose 8)

Welp, it's generally accepted that they come to exist when 'culture' was introduced, I think.
Thus if you want to work on that basis then England would be over 5000 years easily. Culture itself was introduced to to England by at least 2,500 BC, though as a standard it more seems to tie into 3,000 BC when the stone age started, moreover when things such as henges started to be constructed. Personally I have this as his 'proto-nation' stage, with the nation coming at around 43AD which is when Rome first invaded, thus acknowledging him/the country. If you want to go by THIS then he's just shy of 2000 years.
Frankly I've always just dubbed him as about 5000 and made a note that he'd been internationally recognised since about 43AD.

8V

it's generally accepted that they come to exist when 'culture' was introduced
It would mean that the proto!France is over 7000 years old ! (the dating results of the oldest megalithic monuments in France are around - 5000 BC). Instead of a proto-nation, in my headcanon, the nation-tan who built the megaliths in Brittany is the father of Gaul and the grandfather of France.

with the nation coming at around 43AD which is when Rome first invaded, thus acknowledging him/the country. If you want to go by THIS then he's just shy of 2000 years.
I tend to think this way too.

Well if we were talking out of the context of APH there is also ancient Mesopotamia which was also around at the beginning of written history but was also said to have become somewhat urbanized around 5300 BCE and is seen as the beginning of western society by many. It's hard to say when it fell though because it had many different eras... If Mesopotamia was in APH context they would likely be the parent or grandparent of Turkey or the Ottomen Empire. So Ancient Mesopotamia would a been one of the oldest nations around, maybe the same age or slightly older than mama Egypt.

[Headcanon Discussion] How old are the nations?

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Mama Egypt and Turkey--most probably

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Mama Egypt and Turkey might be the eldest--can't really say when/where/how they popped out

Germany

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Re: Germany

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Re: Mama Egypt and Turkey--most probably