[Question] Native America?

[psykam.livejournal.com]

Alright, so, in my US History class we've been talking about the Native Americans and all their roles in US History. What I'd like to know is: What exactly is your head cannon revolving the nation of Native America? I'm not sure if the character is female or male, but what I generally see is Native America is the mother(ly figure) to America. Looking at this from a historical perspective, how could this be?

I tend to lean towards America and Native America knew of each other but they aren't actually related. Like, Native America knew of him and may or may not have known he would be (his? her?)downfall and he would eventually be the nation in charge of the land (terrible word choice, excuse that). Though, I have read a few decent stories on the Kink Meme where Native America is the mother of America and Canada. I like to think that the Noth American Brothers at least pay respects to the former nation.

What do you guys think?

Comments

[transemacabre.livejournal.com]

I don't like the idea of a single Native America. I think each tribe has its own personification. It's as ridiculous to me as having a single Africa-tan. Since so many of the Indian tribes are still around, so are their personifications -- the fic in which Native America is dead are, uh, sort of offensive to me.

[psykam.livejournal.com]

There was one fic I read where she was dead but America would contact her through a form of smoke messaging. The idea that each tribe has is own personification does kind of work. I like that.

[nikonikolicious.livejournal.com]

Interesting question. My opinion is that... Alfred met Native America in her/his downfall just in the last days, he will treasure that in his memory, not quite knowing the cause of the downfall ...

And sorry for the bad english orz :S

♥

[itsukochan.livejournal.com]

As sad as it is, I usually see Native America as Alfred, but, like, a different "personality", so to speak.
And when the Europeans came over...that "personality" died (representing the thousands upon thousands of natives that died from Europeans), and modern-day Alfred emerged, but he doesn't remember it much (representing how few Americans today are of native descent).

[plushielover177.livejournal.com]

I don't think you could associate Native America with a single personification. The tribes are just too different.

[kecen.livejournal.com]

Alfred knew the different tribal nation-tans. They're still around today.

[samishii-kami.livejournal.com]

I like to think she is still around, but stays with the tribes on the preservations that are still left. I mean technically they are still around and consider themselves as separate entities so why should she be completely gone? Prussia still exists anyway. The way I see it is that so long as the history of the nation (so in this case the "nation" of the NA tribes) is still alive, then so shall the personification live.

Also I understand the opinions of those that think there should be more than one NA personification, but should there not be more than one USA then (technically state personifications do not actually exist in canon as far as I've seen)? It is really just a way to help simplify everything by having one personification (minus Italy).

In terms of his/her relation to other nations, I think she helped care for US, Canada, and Mexico when they were first "born" from the land and taught them the ways of Mother Nature until the settlers came and they became more drawn to the new humans. With Mexico though, I think other South American personifications helped raise that nation as well, but that North Native America still had some influence.

[lovelycudy.livejournal.com]

I think there are more than one Native America personification because there were different nations, with different cultures, religious beliefs and languages. The Thirteen Colonies/British America/USA are all the same thing: same language, same religion in a very broad sense, same political ascription...

I think Native American nations are like England's brothers: different nations living in the same territory.

[plushielover177.livejournal.com]

Also I understand the opinions of those that think there should be more than one NA personification, but should there not be more than one USA then (technically state personifications do not actually exist in canon as far as I've seen)?

No, the different tribes have completely different cultures. The states may differ a little regionally, but they still have a government system that unites them. Tribes are all run separately.

[narwhal123.livejournal.com]

I believe this question shoves a big hole into the logic of Hetalia. What do the characters represent? Political nations? Physical boundaries? Both? And countries are always moving and flowing, not just "Oh, here it's the HRE, and here it becomes Germany". So basically, the entirety of Hetalia is really just a bunch of loose ends, because history and the world itself is really just a big thing without borders or boundaries. You have to stop and think for a bit before you realize that countries are really only ideas, and so what defines them?
Oh, wow, sorry for ranting. Anyways, in my headcanon, I believe that it was more like the tribes were their own nations. They are the America that was there before European culture and modern politics took over. I think that Alfred is only European-influenced!America, and that the tribes all sort of live in his basement. Because if Prussia isn't dead, why should they be?

[lovelycudy.livejournal.com]

I think the characters represent nations not countries. That is, England is England even if his rulers are Normands. I think that the characters somehow embody the ethos of a people and that's why they are stereotypes: Arthur is the essence of the English people, Francis of the French, Spain of the Spanish (and that's another can of worms because Spain should have some brothers, too), etc.

[nupinoop296.livejournal.com]

My headcanon is based off of those stories where Native America is America and Canada's mother. Specifically, the ones where England and France take them away and they forget about her.

;A; I'll leave now.

[lovelycudy.livejournal.com]

My headcanon is that there are many personifications of the different tribes. After all, Hetalia characters are "nations" not countries. But I think Alfred as we know him is not one of the tribes. I think he was truly a baby when England and the rest found him. Or better yet, he appeared when the Vikings found North America. I simply can't ignore he's blond and blue eyed.

Regarding what happened to the different indigenous nations... well, I think some survived and live in the US and some disappeared. They were absorbed, if that makes sense when America conquered the West and, well, killed all those people.

I have a similar headcanon for nations like France. I think France absorbed/killed his "brothers", like L'Occitaine. Similarly, Germany absorbed some of the old nations in the German Confederation and they disappeared.

NOTE: I don't mean to be offensive in any way. If I was, I apologise.

EDIT: I was talking about something like this with reaperangelique regarding Albion/Brittania and Gallia. I'd love to see some strips about this kind of stuff. Considering there's a Rome, Ancient Greece, Ancient Egypt and Germania, I think it's only logical that both of them and Native America also existed.

[lunalotte88.livejournal.com]

I simply can't ignore he's blond and blue eyed.

Which makes me wonder, do you think America should have been portrayed as a person with brown hair and brown eyes? I was wondering that...after all, the US is known as the "melting pot" of different heritages, and I think it's been that way for many years...

[jamminbison.livejournal.com]

I sorta...try to stay off the topic of Native America in Hetalia as it's too harsh of a topic. Nevertheless, I've written fic about my "version" of Native America (http://community.livejournal.com/hetalia/7887955.html) in a very broad sense of the word (no one read it 8D).

The problem you have with Native America being some sort of mother to the hetalia versions of America and Canada is that those nations don't even want to support their Native people on a large scale. Both those nations did not sign the UN agreement to support native people in order to preserve their traditions, their language, their land, anything. New Zealand and Australia, with their high populations of aboriginal people signed it, but not North America. So for Hetalia!Canada and America to be somehow friendly with any version of Turtle Island is sort of laughable. This is very much a reason why I don't think anyone should really touch a Hetalia version of Native America unless it's in a broad, subtle way, just like they should touch something like...I don't know, a personification of Nazi Germany/Third Reich in particular or something. It's too sensitive an issue that hits home. I hope Himaruya never gets a hair up his ass and decides to depict it, because there will be face palming all around.

That said, it hurts to see these threads crop up from time to time and still hear people say that Hetalia!Native America is dead/dying. I know these people mean no harm, but Native America/Canada/Mexico/South America/whatever is alive and well. The Aztecs dance in the park every month a train ride away from me, the elders come down to visit the NCC every week, and there's powwow somewhere around here. The populations of aboriginal people is larger than you think. I've heard some native person on the web jokingly say that the Cherokee must've married every other white woman they seen, because everyone claims to be 1/280 Cherokee in America, haha.

Anyway, I ramble. If someone were to make some OC!Native America, it would probably be split up by the major language groups, probably, or would be a figure that delegates between the major native nations (Yes! Native America/Canada does have it's own history/conflicts/etc. before settlers ever stepped foot on the land!). Alfred and Matthew are just so different, not just in looks or personality, but in their view of life, that it's hard to imagine them ever being able to see eye to eye with a personification of their native people. Preferably, however, the concept of Native America in Hetalia either be laid to rest or for someone to depict it respectively and with the PROPER KNOWLEDGE (I don't know how many times I've read a fic where their Native America OC dances with wolves or some weird crap. But then again, no one wants the truth of /real/ native life. It's not the same as their fantasy.). Though, there' so much that is beautiful about native culture, that I sometimes wish it was represented more and I hesitate to represent it in the Hetalia comm because I feel if I do, the reality of the culture would be ignored in favor of a idealized view of it. OH WELL.

SORRY I WAS SO BLUNT, fffuuuu.

EDIT: If there had to be one representation, it would be a she as women tend to hold a little more sway in native culture than most European cultures and because Hetalia needs more women. She would have the best sense of humor ever, because humor is a big thing in native culture. She be a go between to all the tribes through Turtle Island and try to regulate amongst them to prevent warfare/conflict.

[gishkishenh.livejournal.com]

OMFG SHE BROUGHT UP A GOOD POINT!
LET'S IGNORE IT!

;)

[vocallight.livejournal.com]

I have an odd theory on the personification of "Native America."

I kind of like to think of both Alfred and Matthew having been "Native America" This is mostly because I kind of like to think the Native American tribes don't need a nation-tan the same way our modern nations do. They seem to be more clued into things than we do. I can see the boys just sort of being there to represent the people broadly, but not specific politics.

I don't have a problem with there being so many different religions, languages, and customs represented by just one or two personifications because I look at modern America and see dozens of different religions, customs, and languages today. Different states and counties even have different laws. Ex: You can be a legally a married homosexual couple in some states, but go into others and they don't consider you married...)

I like to think that the boys crossed over the land-bridge with the first American immigrants and just stuck around ever since. They just change with the majority of their populations. (They're much older than even most nations realize).

[clowderheart.livejournal.com]

First of all, there's more than one. Way more. And a lot of them are still alive, but not in great shape. They aren't happy with their present state but can't really do much about it.

They've been around a long time, and most of them view America and Canada as a pair of stupid kids that have no idea what they're doing. It makes them angry, but they to go about their business and not dwell on it except when there's a specific issue at stake. I don't really know enough about the individual nations to be more specific than that.

But yeah, they just tend to make the NA bros feel really really awkward

[lunalotte88.livejournal.com]

Btw, I think this also needs a "discussion" tag.

[hoshiko2.livejournal.com]

Honestly, I feel that N.A. and America and Canada are very...civil to each other. Canada is probably on better terms with her (I believe it's a her thanks to Pocahontas and Sacajawea) compared to America. I see America kinda did the horrible child thing to do and just dump their elders off at a retirement home and visits every so often, mainly to ask for money.

But when they were younger, I see her as being a lot more open and helping the brothers because they were young and awfully lonely. She obviously taught them the ways of the land and traded frequently, so she must have been like a motherly figure to them, or at least someone to mooch off of.

But I don't see her being an actual mother to the brothers at all. She is far too different from them. For one thing, America was born from Puritans (at least the one we see today, not the same one Finland and Sweden tried to make), so there's no way Native America would've given birth to that.

[hikari-kaitou.livejournal.com]

I agree with what other people have been saying about more than one "Native America"-tan. However we've only been presented with one in canon representitive of a Native American nation, a male chibi(referencing the French and Indian/Seven Years War).

As for the Native American rep(s) being the mother/father of the America/Canada we know, that makes absolutely no sense to me. Native America did not give birth to the white!European America, and though there was some interracial mixing the children who resulted from it were not, to my understanding, considered white and not seen as citizens or even fully human by the white settlers. I think Alfred came into being with the establishment of the first European settlement.

I guess if you really wanted there to be some sort of familial connection, you might be able to argue for big sister since they did help the white settlers survive when they first arrived in America. Natives were especially helpful to the French in Canada (if you want to include them in this discussion) and the French relied entirely on their trapping skills to build their "fur-trading empire". So yeah, I'm thinking big sister if anything.

[lovelycudy.livejournal.com]

Do you, by any chance, have a link to that strip handy?

Regarding interracial mixing: the English, like the Portuguese, didn't want to mix with the natives. The settlers objective was to create a New England (no pun intended) and transfer English culture as exactly as possible. So yes, you are right. Mixing was not encouraged. I also agree that Native!America is not America's mother. He's an European "baby" to put it in human words.

[mizabee.livejournal.com]

Yes I love topics about the Americas!

I always pictured Native America as a woman. I guess because woman are linked to nature or something like that. Whatever that's not the important thing here.

And being the person with the wacked out mind that the good Lord has given me I pictured her downfall as giving birth to baby America and/or Canada or protecting the kids. orz It's amazing how I come up with this stuff on the top of my head. FAIL. I live off others' sadness orz

As for the part of the NA bros, I imagine them especially America trying to forget her in a sense only because he blames himself for her death. Canada has gotten over her absense and got use to being an orphan. But America is just torn apart about it and secretly wants his mom back.

Yay for my messed up mind! :D....... OTL juat ignore me and my failure.

[cattiechaos.livejournal.com]

I imagine Native America to be a wise, motherly figure almost like Mother Nature (or Grandmother Willow from Pocahontas XD) This is just my headcanon, but when Alfred was very young, Native America was the one that taught him how to survive and taught him to treat nature and all living things with respect. However I don't see their relationship as close or even all that warm, because she knew he was a stranger and was probably suspicious of him to the end.

That's my two cents C:

[kenzi-chi.livejournal.com]

native america would certainly be more than one person (like it was already stated a million times above me) because each tribe was just way too different.

(correct me if i'm wrong) but i think that the first people to have discovered north america were the irish or vikings, whichever. that explains their different appeareance compared to the natives. i know alfred and matthew couldn't have just been BORN there.

and i wouldn't say 'downfall'. it's not like the spainish/portuguese/british just destroyed their civilizations from the get go. idk much about SA (cause right now i'm only learning about american history), but the indians lived along side the foreigners for a while even if some weren't really friendly w/ each other.

um... i can't go beyond this (lacks knowledge) :/

[transemacabre.livejournal.com]

No, the Indians were there thousands of years before the Vikings ever made footfall on Vinland.

And there are thriving Native American cultures existing today, many different tribes with their own languages and cultures. I personally know a White Mountain Apache and a Cherokee (who speaks Tsalagi/Cherokee).

[roundabout225.livejournal.com]

Focusing only on the relationship between America and Native!America...I think that she was his "mother" figure...she raised and cared for him, breast fed him, taught him how to survive, everything, from infancy to toddler-hood. (Remember, England found him as a young child)

However, after some time, America left her for England, essentially forgetting about her. (In my headcannon she was too afraid of England to try to take America back and could only watch from the bushes as England cared for America) He abused her people, and when she appealed to him, he responded that he didn't remember who she was, despite the fact that she had raised him. Even after Alfred became an independent nation, he abused her people, and consequently, her.

In the recent years, Alfred has recognized her once again, and has made an attempt to make up for what he did to her.

[jaannoskaasu.livejournal.com]

I'm gonna go with what you said and use that as my own explanation. Just cause I like it the best and it makes sense to me

*ninjas away*