Intro...and Question!

[princesskoorime.livejournal.com]

Hello, fellow fans. Adriyel-chan here as a new member!

Now normally, when I join a community, I (to be honest) lurk. Has been so for 6 years, and I'm comfortable with that.

However I'm breaking my tradition because I have a rather interesting question.

Would a nation be considered the same thing as a country? What I mean is, would a group of people (for example the Jewish Nation) have the same sort of personified spirit as the countries, do you think?

I very much would like to get many people's opinions on this, if you would!

Comments

Hmmm

[ninja-nutjob.livejournal.com]

maybe. I mean, the colonies were personified right? But maybe the group of people in queston would have to occupy one specific piece of land.

[subtle-overlord.livejournal.com]

I'm glad you brought this up. After all, a nation is simply a group of people who have a shared history, language, culture, etc. so one could technically say there is nation of Lakers fans. A country/state is just a border. This is why Himaruya is rather slow on bringing up countries such as countries like India and the African countries- these "nations" were the result of border controls perpetrated by European imperialists and there are always conflicts as to what group of people can self-declare themselves nation-states. For example, the Tamil Tigers of India would rather not be a part of "India" which was the result of loose alliance of separate Indian kingdoms. And then you have other problems such as former Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia who broke up as small segments of people declared themselves sovereign nation-states.

So in short, no a nation is not a country. However because the Hetalia series is based off of nations and not countries, then yes, if following with consistency, there should be a nation for just about everything in existence.

[tan0sh11-chan.livejournal.com]

I don't know. There's no "Navajo Nation" yet, so we'll see. xD

I agree with Overlord though.

[princesskoorime.livejournal.com]

I appreciate your answers, and I must say my biggest problem with answering my own question was I was too good at seeing both sides of the (possible) argument. ^_^

I agree with you Overlord, that a country was just borders. And I'm glad you said what you said about "the Hetalia series is based off of nations and not countries", because that gives me an actual basis for my idea.

And tan0sh11, we must be thinking along the same lines, because the Native Americans were the ones I was thinking of when posting the question. ^_^

And thanks, ninja! I was hoping it would be possible!

[tan0sh11-chan.livejournal.com]

YAY ALONG THE SAME LINES~

[hayama4.livejournal.com]

I think Himayura probably started with just the main players of WWII and then added countries (recognized or not) that sparked his interest.

I had never heard of Sealand or Seychelles before Hetalia but they are cool ^_^. Also, England is supposed to represent the whole United Kingdom when Ireland and Scotland are culturally distinct.

PS: I don't know why Himayura decided glasses were Texan, but as someone who moved to Texas, I understand that it really is a place of its own. LOL

[hayama4.livejournal.com]

Himaruya*

[haro.livejournal.com]

Also, England is supposed to represent the whole United Kingdom when Ireland and Scotland are culturally distinct.

Actually, there is a Wales and Scotland. England's 'brothers' are mentioned more than once, and Scotland is mentioned by name. Hidekaz once said he wanted to draw them, and that they would have England's brows if he did.

And he definitely doesn't represent Ireland, as that's not part of the UK. Do you mean Northern Ireland?

[hayama4.livejournal.com]

I was thinking back to like the 1940's but I fail even there because Ireland was still it's own country before then.

I'm caught up on the anime but I'm way behind in the manga so I haven't heard about Scotland yet. It would be totally cool to see Scotland, Wales and Ireland (I wonder if he'd make Northern Ireland a separate character) ^_^

I guess it all depends on what countries/nations the creator has time/ wants to characterize and encorporate into the story.

[daegaer.livejournal.com]

Going on the logic (if you'll forgive the word!) of what we're shown in the Chibitaria storyline, England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland should all start with their own "houses", then Wales would be forced to move to England's house in the reign of Henry VIII (he enacted the Acts of Union with Wales, 1535/1543), Ireland may or may not have moved in in 1542 (the Parliament in Ireland declared Henry VIII king of Ireland - but that parliament controlled nowhere near the whole country and it's not until the early 17th century that the native and Hiberno-Norman rulers were defeated by Elizabeth I's/James VI&I's forces) - in 1542, Ireland and England formed a personal union (two countries one ruler - the same as Poland and Lithuania originally had) so perhaps they had separate houses. In 1603, England, Scotland and Ireland formed a personal union after Elizabeth I's death. In 1707, the Act of Union between England and Scotland would have had Scotland now living in England's house, and in 1801, the Act of Union between Great Britain and Ireland would have moved Ireland in (if not already there). Scotland (if not the others explicitly) is described as England's brother, so it's unlikely any of these nations end up married to England (though we don't yet know anything about Wales or Ireland in Hetalia-terms). The other canonical examples of personal unions are, however described as marriages or in marriage-like terms (Austria and Hungary are married in 1867, while Poland and Lithuania, who go from a personal union in 1385 to a commonwealth and single government from 1569-1795 are described as each other's "partner" or "companion" in the translations I've seen. I'm leaving Sweden and Finland's case out of this as Finland wasn't a separate state joined in union with Sweden but had previously and still was part of Sweden at the time they ran away from Denmark's house/the Kalmar Union was broken up).

As to whether N. Ireland is a separate character or not, I'd say that depends on whether Himaruya sees it as a separate country or as a partitioning. If the latter - well, Poland was partitioned, and there's only one of him!

[hayama4.livejournal.com]

Wow, that's a lot of history! I'm a biologist so history has never been my thing, but Hetalia has certainly made it more interesting. I know Hetalia isn't something you should base your understanding of history off, but it has made me think a lot more. Chibitalia especially. I was like "who's this Holy Roman Empire guy?" and sure enough, a whole section of history just wasn't even on my radar.

[daegaer.livejournal.com]

What will all the various Acts of Union (and the massive and lengthy histories of the countries), Himaruya was probably relieved just to have one character representing the UK! (Also, for the main WW2 storyline, Ireland was neutral and so wouldn't be a major character one way or the other).

I love the whole Chibitalia story! It brings back fond memories of school, only in cuter and funnier forms :-)

[surelyyoujest.livejournal.com]

.......you know, interestingly enough, something similar came up recently in a seminar I went to, and the conclusion everyone there seemed to reach was that a "nation" is kind of...well, fictive. Culture is such a squishy entity, and so very diverse, even within a small region, that applying a broader term like "nation" and expecting it to really encompass the identity of everyone there is just doomed from the get-go. The terminology they used specifically referenced the "nation state" as a construct, a political/social/economic tool. I managed to find decent summaries of the concept (here: http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-nation-state.htm, and here: http://www.towson.edu/polsci/ppp/sp97/realism/whatisns.htm), and hopefully that helps make what I'm trying to say make more sense. Terminology matters, too, I found out, because if a nation-state is a construct, what do you call a cultural group? The UN treats word choice with great import, so much so that whether you use "people" or "peoples" in reference to a group makes a serious difference to what you mean. (And to be honest, I'd never thought about it like that before, because I've grown up in a culture where the nation state is a well-founded institution. Issues of indigenous culture and first nations just weren't touched upon the same way.)


......and then I came home and streamed episode 32 and cried a little bit on the inside because it was still awesome, even if academia had just ripped it a new one. I figure it's all in good fun and just try not to think about it too hard, hahaha. You could really make a case for anything! Damn, that's a good question.

[surelyyoujest.livejournal.com]

fffffff. TL;DR.


What subtle_overlord said. XD

[koneko-desu.livejournal.com]

Politically speaking nations are not the same as countries, but for Hetalia I think it's just Himaruya going by his whims. He had a core group of countries to use for WWII, and now he's just going with the flow. I mean for a place like Hong Kong, it's not a country but is it a nation? But if we say Himaruya's strictly going by nations then a place like Canada should be littered with little "nations" because there's so many people from different backgrounds here.

[loremaula.livejournal.com]

There is no country in the world what can be considered a single "nation". So, if Himaruya should draw every "nation", he'd never finish to create new characters... Even in my country, Spain, you can find more than five or six radically different "nations", with their own culture and language.

[ghrelin.livejournal.com]

um...the jewish nation IS a country.

[princesskoorime.livejournal.com]

Don't worry, ghrelin. I know it is. I was only using it as a possible example of a nation. What I was truly referring to, when I posed the question, was the Native Americans.

I came up with this idea that, there was a nation-spirit here before American-san, one that represented the heart of the Native Americans. And if so, where would he/she be?
In the end, it becomes a rather dark prospect...^_^

And I appreciate everyone who took their time to respond to a silly question like mine!

[jjblue1.livejournal.com]

Considering Prussia was before the 'Order of the Teutonic Knights' and that Italy has 2 personifications when it's actually a single nation and had those two personifications much before you could talk about the existence of a nation named Italy I'll say it's possible.

[matilda-kun.livejournal.com]

I've always thought of the characters as... Personified dreams. Like when a group of people gather together and feel strongly for something. Like, it is because nationalism exists and people are willing to die for their country and so on, I think that's the true reason the countries exist, because many people dreamt about their country and loved it. Then, thinking logically, the only thing that could kill a nation is that people stop caring about it and forget about it, and they would just fade away, it's the people which keeps the nation alive.
That's how I like to think about it.

Of course, I think Himaruya just created this for fun and didn't think too much about it.

(Lol, sorry if you don't understand, I realised how much I suck at explaining XD)