'No Laughing Matter' - Those who Dislike APH for Satirizing Dark History

[britishunicorn.livejournal.com]

A recent commenter on a fanart I did of Canada said that they were Canadian and was terribly offended. I thought they had just never heard of Hetalia and apologied and afterwards explained that all countries in Hetalia were depicted in a satirical fashion.

The commenter went on to say that they had indeed heard of Hetalia and said it was "making a satire about something you can't make satire about", referring to how World War II is in no way laughable.

I didn't really address that last bit (though I couldn't see if they had been making similar comments on other Hetalia pieces, seems they REALLY dislike Hetalia, and also happen to be much more 'popular' than me by the art site's standards, which bugged me more at the time), but my question for the community is this:

How do you deal with people like this? How do you explain someone making a light hearted comedy about a very dark part of the history of civilization?

Comments

[rachelo.livejournal.com]

Dr. Strangelove satirized Cold War issues with a little more complexity and acumen than chibi Nazi Germany making out with Chibi Poland or whatever. Make your silly drawings but please don't compare them to Dr. Strangelove.

[saramon.livejournal.com]

The thing is, that does disturb me a little bit about Hetalia. The fact that my favorite character is Germany kind of freaks me out, because I do realize that he's a, er, Nazi, you know.

Like Kurt Vonnegut said, "Some things aren't funny. I can't ever imagine a joke about Auschwitz."

Agreed, but come on - you have to joke about SOME things. We joke about things we're afraid of. Like when white people dressed up in blackface and did comedy shows - it was a joke born out of fear. So long as they don't start cracking jokes about Jews and concentration camps and shit like that, I think people who take it too seriously just need to get a sense of humor, especially since they obviously aren't WWII vets or anything.

[kanami-yuuta.livejournal.com]

actually german wasnt really nazi... he was following orders... he said his boss to be scary (probably the nazi was convenient to follow since germany was a bad stage after the first world it was bankrupt and the nazis were the ones who actually helped lot in german control)

also I heard somewhere after the second world war ended germans were really sorry about the whole thing happening since they some of they werent really aware of the real situation and the ones that were aware just took it as natural

of course I'm not saying the country wasnt guilty...

[rachelo.livejournal.com]

Springtime for Hitler made a laughing stock of Nazism. It didn't make it cute and dreamy and bishonen. There's a difference between laughing at something and transforming into masturbation fodder.

[inuyashacooks.livejournal.com]

i'd prolly say something like this to a person who made that argument: "hetalia satirizes relations between countries, the unique characters of countries, and strategy undertaken by countries- WWII is a good cultural setting to do that. it doesn't actually satirize WWII itself." because, you know, hidekaz himaruya doesn't go around making tasteless jokes like "LOL then evree1 DIED the end!1" XD

[haro.livejournal.com]

Some of the most popular and best comedies of all time are satires of very dark situations or parts of history, yes, even WWII. Hetalia is nothing new. There are lines that shouldn't ever be crossed, even in comedy. Hetalia doesn't cross those. :(

[v-navi.livejournal.com]

I think that laughing and comedy is a very important part of being human. Even for things that are sad, taking something so very important and making it funny and entertaining is something that takes skill and a lot of hard work. Also, there are satires on everything, and satire is essentially just that, making fun of ourselves and so on and so forth.

In dealing with people like this, I think it's important to recognize that they are there, with their own strongly held opinions, but it's also important to ignore anything degrading and not let it get to you ><. Everyone learns to laugh at themselves, and it just makes life easier.

[demikkusuu.livejournal.com]

"You see Dr. Wen in there? He's explaining to that family that something went wrong, and that patient died. He's gonna tell them what happened, he's gonna say he's sorry - and then he's going back to work. Do you think anybody else in that room's going back to work today? That is why we distance ourselves; that's why we make jokes. We don't do it because it's fun. We do it so we can get by. And... sometimes because it's fun. But mostly it's the getting by thing."
Because satire is the best way to make sense of something, I mean, most satire is rooted in exposing the fraud behind human folly or something.
idk, hetalia's a lot more than just world war ii (though wwii is a lot of hetalia), i mean, it's got these weirdass old cultural historic trivia strips. idk, mang.

[demikkusuu.livejournal.com]

(though wwii is a lot of hetalia),
oh god, i realized how horribly i phrased that. i meant, "wwii seems to be what hetalia is about a lot of the time"
JUST
DFDF

This is my little speech...

[extremlygirly.livejournal.com]

Eddie Izzard... Family guy... Monty python... South park... Chaucer...William Shakespeare...
Its not something new, and if you look closely at any comedy its going to be making fun of something!
aka,
Screw you eh?

Re: This is my little speech...

[dumdumdumbutt.livejournal.com]

Screw you?

really?

[cykstar.livejournal.com]

Hetalia is more making fun of military strategies and the countries' reactions toward each other. It's also not very centered at WW2, more at the whole general history of the countries. Hetalia isn't making light of the deaths, the infamous Genocide, and many of the events that were occuring during that time (if it were, I wouldn't be into Hetalia). There is a lot of media that makes light of the strategy part of war, not the casualties. Hetalia isn't the first to satiricize/criticize WW2 or any war. There are a ton of movies, books, cartoons, tv shows that do that as well.

I mean honestly, there were a lot of idiotic military strategies back then (WW1, let's charge them with our men and see what happens!). And are we not allowed to make fun of Hitler (with his icky mustache and weird hair parting)?

It just seems like someone can't understand the difference between satire and just being an asshole.

[riot-of-flowers.livejournal.com]

Most of the time I just do not argue and let it slip by because the other part is not interested in hearing what I have to say, it's like if hearing what someone has to say equals to accepting or supporting that view.

You could try asking him what exactly offended him and which kind of series he likes to make comparisons, always keeping in mind that he might not listen no matter if you present your view with colorful stuff and offer him a million.

*hugs*

[lumos.livejournal.com]

I've run into a few people like this before, but I typically just ignore it/accept their opinion and move on.

Some people can be very easily offended and take things very seriously. You're likely not going to be able to change their opinion on it. Of course, its certainly not the first time there's been satire/humor about a darker subject matter, but people all interpret it differently.

This didn't really seem to answer the question much, but if they strongly hate Hetalia because they see it as being offensive (even though that's obviously not its intended purpose), there isn't really much that can change their entire opinion like that; (it would practically have to be changing their entire basis for what they see as offensive and not)

That's my view on it anyway, sorry if I'm confusing/unhelpful

[irrationalsense.livejournal.com]

I believe you responded to that commenter in an appropriate and mature manner. I don't think that you could be faulted in any way for your response to this person, no matter their popularity or opinion. What I can't understand is why, if they had such a problem with it and a dislike of Hetalia in general, they bothered commenting at all.

I'll have to disagree with the commenter's assertion that Hetalia was "making a satire about something you can't make satire about." There is nothing that can't be satirized. There is a tradition going back to ancient Greece about the thin line of comedy and tragedy. Furthermore, satire and comedy can help us examine these issues more closely and learn more: about history, about sensitive issues, about other peoples and cultures, about other points of view, and also about ourselves.

While there are many dark parts in the history of civilization, there are also many triumphs and things that we can take pride and joy in. And, of course, things we can laugh at.

Hetalia, though a comedy, opens room for a lot more to those involved. And that is one of the best things about it. It brings people together (no matter how far away or from different backgrounds) and starts dialogue, whether it is light-hearted or serious in nature. Closing down such conversations and interactions is more of an injustice than laughing about it.

[berseker.livejournal.com]

Well... that's pretty much Hetalia's whole point, isn't it? When the joke is about something that deeply disturbs me, I just hit back-button. Like, I know it's WW2, but I honestly can't deal with the Holocaust being treated lightly, so when I sense something is heading that way, I stop reading/looking and that's it.

Now, your question... well. I think that, most times, history is funny. I always thought so. I was fascinated the first time I saw Hetalia because I've being studying History like that for most of my life and I thought I was the only one (in my universe, Italy was a girl, btw. So was Germany. And she was a total bitch) and while WW2 is a dark subject, when you turn the nations into persons, the humor shows up, because then you can't have a real invasion with thousand of deaths, that would ruin the story. You need someone that will end up sounding silly, and that’s when occupied France, a terrible moment in real life, becomes three idiots discussing escargot while France watches and facepalms. And you, the reader, has to be clever enough to know that if this occupation is painful to you, the joke will hurt you and you should avoid it.

And the fics make a good job balancing things out. For every fluffy humor fic about a touchy subject, there’s a darker one to remind people why, say, imperialism wasn’t exactly fun, or how violent WW2 actually was, so there’s something for everyone here.


(I usually avoid the darker stuff, btw. If I wanted that, I'd go for my history books. So I guess I'm the opposite of that person - bring me the funny and cute and fluffy. \o/)

[saramon.livejournal.com]

Indeed - the way I soothe any guilt I feel about liking the "evil" countries is by writing a fic about Germany getting his ass kicked or something. haha.

[isableh.livejournal.com]

Well, it's not like (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCUfkMkVbwo) it hasn't been (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJOuoyoMhj8) done before. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWP_rEWG2xk)

Hetalia doesn't go over anything seriously anyway, it's set in WWII but it really doesn't go over it. So just ignore them and move on~

[ladyrandomness.livejournal.com]

No, it is not funny to joke about all the POW's, the torture, the people who were killed, etc from WWII. It's a very unpleasant part of history and should ALWAYS be regarded seriously, but Hetalia doesn't touch on those portions of WWII. As far as I know, there hasn't been a strip mentioning concentration camps or the Rape of Nanjing. Himaruya hasn't touched on slavery, racism, or religion either. As long as the fans aren't going, "Aww, Japan and Germany were so CUTE during WWII; why did school make me hate them so much?", there isn't a point in getting worked up over it. I don't condone a single war crime committed during WWII and never will, no matter how much I like Hetalia.

[rebornhayatofan.livejournal.com]

oh wows im sad, haha the "Aww, Japan and Germany were so CUTE during WWII"
that was actually something i had thought. but its more of because history is written by the winners, and because i had some horrible teacher that just went on ahead and said things like "russia is an evil country" but now if i herd them say that i think i would cry and teach them some russian history.

[awww-applesauce.livejournal.com]

My arguement against people who think that about Hetalia is:
1) Opinions are like assholes, everyne has one.Everyone is entitled to their opinions.
2) Hetalia focuses on The History of countries, and some of the weirder aspects of it. Not just WW2.
3)The parts that focus on WW2...Really look at it, is anyone in the series made out to be the bad guy? Is anybody murdering anyone? Okay sure Italy gets beat up...alot...But its poking fun at the fact that Italy's military has always been kinda weak. All the countries have their good points and their bad points. All the countries in this series are sterotyped. The assumption that everyone in the country is basically like that.

I personally haven't come across anybody who heavily dislikes Hetalia. My friend who got me into the fandom has told me of her friend who finds the series offensive. But then she goes and tells me that her friend watches things like Family Guy and South Park...Which is probably a bit worse in the offending than Hetalia. =/ [Well to me anyways.] In any case, I would probably leave it at the "Every one has opinions."

[diplopod.livejournal.com]

I've never had to deal with the problem personally. But you might want to ask them if they've even read/watched it. Because Hetalia really... doesn't have anything to do with WWII. IIRC, it was only a few strips at best. And it didn't even touch on the Holocaust.

You might also want to inform them WWII ended, what... 60, 70 years ago? It's time to move on and it's okay to laugh. If you can't laugh at the past, your probably going to be one miserable person in the future.

But in all honesty, people like that don't want to hear what you have to say and absolutely will not be persuaded otherwise. It might be best to ignore them. :\

If it were me, I'd just ask if they need help removing that stick from their ass, but... yeah, don't do that. :|

[diplopod.livejournal.com]

Haha, everyone here's way better at explaining things than me.

This whole thing reminds me of something Carlos Mencia said at the end of his first comedy special. Something along the lines of "if you can't laugh, your screwed." But yes, having a sense of humor and being able to laugh at the past are really important, I think.

Anyone who can't laugh at a little joke about something that happened so long ago is really missing out.

[rebornhayatofan.livejournal.com]

i understand if things can offend people, but the thing is, every joke thats hetalia related, is usually fact. and i think that if someone gets offended just by how thair country is presented or some other country, then they should have to be offended just as much by every other charector. i hate how people can go on and on about finding one particular charector offensive, but then they could give a shit less about all the others OTL. i mean at least you get to learn something while being offended. on my DA i have gotten some comments on my art like this as well. if you are offended, i dont think you should spam the page saying so. its not fair to the artest, or anyone else who happens to come across the art work.

[kaasen.livejournal.com]

I know exactly what you're talking about. I've run into a couple people who are offended by Hetalia too, both by the stereotypes or how Hetalia portrays very serious and tragic historical events in a satirical way. It's understandable that people would be highly sensitive about these sorts of things.

However, we've always had jokes about people from other countries, as well as comedies in wartime settings. So why is it that when Hetalia does it, it's not funny? Personally, I find Hetalia's 'offensive' humor to be so ridiculous it's fairly obvious that it's not the countries and events that are being made fun of--it's the stereotypes themselves, and how pointlessly cruel war is. Portraying the countries as people who we can empathize with definitely proves Hetalia to not be the insensitive satire that some people think it is.

[felinaofl2.livejournal.com]

I haven't really encountered anyone who's been angry at APH, but I think it's actually reached a good balance because of the fandom. While APH is lighthearted and a fun way to satirize history, it's the fans who explore the darker side of Hetalia. Austria may gets playfully hit in canon, but we fans will have him badly wounded and facing a harsh defeat; Russia may scare Liet, but fans will have Liet tortured by a blood-stained Russia. I think because we do this, we demonstrate an understanding that no, history never has and never will be pretty or lighthearted. We know what horrors humankind has wrought, and we know that such things are sensitive subjects.

But that doesn't mean we can't chuckle at the fact that Germany always bails out Italy, because that IS what happened during the war. History does have amusing things about it- the fact that what destroyed Napoleon's & Hitler's campaigns in Russia was the brutal winter is amusing and teaches one of the International Rules Of Fighting: Don't be an invader during Russian winter. And what about the French Military History jokes?

I think this is what makes the Hetalia fandom special-- we don't flame each other or bicker over who's paired with who or why THIS is better than THAT, because we know how stupid it is. We laugh when Italy gets picked on while remembering that there's a darker side to it. We understand history can be funny or horrifying and in a way, APH lets us learn about events in history we might not have known.

Sorry for the long post, I just ponder this stuff sometimes.

[ispeakpew.livejournal.com]

No, the wars weren't funny, but in all honestly, most of the wartime stripes aren't funny at all. They're dramatic. they're sad. the Swedish-Polish war strip was pretty epic and not funny at all. plus it's not just making fun of the wars. it's making fun of almost every stereotype of EVERY country, not just one or two. no lines are crossed in the humour, and it's done in a relatively non-offensive manner.

and i say if you can't at least laugh at a stereotype about your country, you have no sense of humour. i mean should i be offended that America is portrayed as an idealistic idiot who does nothing but eat junk food? probably. but i'm not. i laugh because it's true; we are idealistic people who do stupid shit and eat a lot of junk food. myself included. history has its instances of stupid, funny, or just plain weird shit. it's true. your textbooks may not word it quite like Hetalia, but then again your textbook is not a personification of world countries that can literally interact with one another. if you can't enjoy a jab about something that actually happened, and get offended about it, then why are you pissing at the people who write our school curriculums?

normally i just ignore people like this, because in the end there's not much reasoning to be had with them. they'll keep their opinions no matter what you say. i don't have time to take the piss off people who can't lighten up a little. i wouldn't speak of hetalia to a war vet, but i highly doubt people on dA are war vets with nothing better to do than post bad crits on casual artists.


i love how everyone in this fandom can make jokes about one another and nobody gets offended. looking at some other less potentially offensive fandoms and seeing all the wank that goes on there, i'm really amazed. maybe that's why i've stuck around and thrown myself in this gig here on LJ, unlike my other fandoms. because you guys are cool n___n'


orzzz long post. i love debates 8D

[box-of-doom.livejournal.com]

It is a satire, and while some people can see the amusing side of it, it will offend others. That's the truth of any satire, really.

My stance on it is that you have to take it with a grain of salt. There is a lot of things not mentioned, for whatever reason.... because it's not funny or because the author doesn't know how to do it or hasn't gotten around to it yet or whatever. And there are a lot of inaccuracies, due to the nations being pared down to individuals, and the fact that the world wars only focus on the 8 major powers, and not the countless other countries that were involved (you don't know how happy I am that the anime showed CANADA at an allied meeting, invisible or not!).

But they have a right to their opinion, and it is a valid one. The opinion of us as fans of the series, however, is just as valid.

And as for it being nothing new, the phrase "No one ever suspects the Spanish Inquisition" comes to mind.

[yamiyoru.livejournal.com]

this again......

there is a difference between laughing at history and laughing with it.

how do you view life? how do you view history?

as long as you live in this world, there will be always be a history and a future. history is often cruel and future is filled with unknown. stop dwelling on the pains of history, how can you move on? this is not to say forget the past. no one should forget the history, it is history that makes the present. it is the present that we works on to make the future a better time. history is a guide for mistakes, not for one to live in.

WWII is indeed one of the worst time in the world and so we should work on world peace instead. how should we do it? by capitalism? by so called democracy? by forcing all countries come to term with the same history textbooks? every country writes their own history, their own version of WWII. everyone suffered from the war, our ancestors know the pain while i don't. why some could accept hetalia and why some couldn't? the question is how seriously can you take hetalia? hetalia is another formula for history and can you read in between the lines?

[picnicbird.livejournal.com]

I completely understand where the people against Hetalia for this reason are coming from. I don't believe it's productive nor completely open-minded to criticize Hetalia for doing the same things Catch-22 and Blackadder, among various other works, have pulled off successfully (although certainly between Hetalia, Heller, and Blackadder, there is a certain perspective that each of these creators grew up with, and set of experiences, and thus they can't be smoothly funneled into the all-inclusive group of YAY PRO-LAUGHTER @ WARTIMES because there are dark themes at work either in the fore- or backgrounds, always); however, within the Hetalia fandom I have noticed practically the same attitude in writing people sensitive to these issues off, which is just as harmful and destructive.

To be completely immune to the issues that some bring up concerning Hetalia, to put those people down as h8ers lol living in the past come back with a modern mindset lolol, is

exercising a form of PRIVILEGE, yes, a privilege, and you can try to deny first-world-country privilege and democratic govt. privilege (and even white privilege, in some cases) all you want, but it's THERE and can remain unchecked due to callowness, because we luxuriate in what our respective societies throw at us -- and it influences some of the rather more heartless dismissals of people's denunciation of the series that I've seen, and the first way to get rid of that form of ignorance is to stop immediately assuming that someone who subscribes to Vonnegut's headline of his absolutely ace newspaper, some things you cannot joke about (thank you above commenting citizen), and applies it to their own sense of morals and experiences and concludes that Hetalia is not a good influence to have in their lives, has NO SENSE OF HUMOR O YOUUU 8)

That is utterly stupid. Live and let live. Accept their opinions and see if you can't learn something from them. (I think it's important someone bring this up.)

[haro.livejournal.com]

exercising a form of PRIVILEGE, yes, a privilege, and you can try to deny first-world-country privilege and democratic govt. privilege

...Wait so being confused about a Canadian's reaction to Hetalia is exercising 'first world country privilege?'

I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of the Hetalia fandom agrees with Vonnegut's comment. That's not even... a question. No one is joking about the Holocaust.

[0phiomancer.livejournal.com]

In all honesty, I do think Hetalia is pretty offensive. Partly for the history it addresses, and even more so for the parts that it chooses not to address. It cutesifies things in a way that I find unnerving.

That said, I obviously like it any way. I just feel a little bit conflicted for doing so.

As far as encountering people who vocally protest the series, I have to say that I can see why they feel offended. I also think that someone who spends their free time accosting fanartists of a series that they hate probably has too much time on their hands, or is cruising for an argument. In that situation, I wouldn't feel it my responsibility to give them one.

TL;DR: I would ignore them.

I don't ask other people to defend their hobbies, and I'm not about to engage in a rhetorical dialogue in order to defend my own. Also worth mentioning is the fact that I am an antisocial sourpuss, and that this tactic obviously will not work well on RL acquaintances.

[rachelo.livejournal.com]

Eh, I'm mostly just interested in what you all have to say. Though maybe I do enjoy the fight.